Shōgun Podcast Episode 7 | FX's Shōgun

Blackthorne (Played by Cosmo Jarvis): Behold the great warlord. Brilliant master of trickery, who tricked his own loyal vassals into a noiseless smothering. [Speaking Japanese] Crimson fucking horseshit.

Emily Yoshida: Welcome to Shōgun: the official podcast. My name is Emily Yoshida and I was a writer on the series, and after each episode, I dive deeper into the different elements that went into making Shōgun with co-creators Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo along with the cast and crew that helped bring this story to life.

This week, we're talking about episode 7, A Stick of Time. As usual, this means that there will be spoilers for this and the previous 6 episodes, so consider yourself warned.

On the podcast today, I'll hear about Toranaga's relationship with his son from actor Hiroyuki Sanada, how Gin laid the seeds for the geisha class with producer Eriko Miyagawa, and how the music for our show gets into the minds of our characters with composer Leopold Ross.

But first, Rachel Kondo, executive producer and co-creator, joins us again to talk through just how pivotal this moment in our story is.

Rachel Kondo: There's something dread filled about this episode. You just have this sense that the other shoe is gonna drop.

Emily Yoshida: The tension and dread that fills this episode all comes back to Toranaga, who, as usual, is totally opaque when it comes to his feelings or plans.

Rachel Kondo: There is a moment when Toranaga is in his contemplation. He is meditating as to what he's going to do or so his advisors think.

And everybody's waiting around and we see this beautiful scene of Toranaga standing by a Torii gate and doing not much. He's just, he's thinking. And the director of this episode, Takeshi Fukunaga, had a great idea for this moment. And he shared an anecdote about his childhood in Hokkaido, and he told us how kids used to throw stones up to the Torii Gate and make a wish.

And it was just such a small, specific anecdote I think is important to note simply because that was one of the ways in which we could bring in actual lived experience of our crew.

Emily Yoshida: It's interesting that to hear its origin cause it's a childhood thing, you know, somebody's from somebody's childhood and in a way it kind of gives away how really at the end of his rope Toranaga, you know, he's, he's doing this very kind of almost superstitious act.

This feels like the first time in our story where Toranaga is actually genuinely taken by surprise by something. It feels like this is genuinely not a part of his plan and the fact that it comes from this family member feels especially, especially cruel in some way or another.

Rachel Kondo: Saeki was the much younger half brother of Toranaga, and he kind of always had it out for his brother because Saeki was the lesser lord who basically was relegated to watching over the calm waters of Yuzenji. And he had a lot of time in his hands and he grew his most excellent ponytail out. And, and so yeah, we have this freed up person who comes in and he's, he doesn't have much to lose, so.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. Yeah. It feels like the kind of person who, you know, when they have a lot of time on their hands and you as Toranaga are not necessarily keeping a strong hold on that alliance, that's somebody who, you know, can go rogue on you.

Rachel Kondo: Totally.

Emily Yoshida: So, Gin is somebody who's not nearly as close to Toranaga as somebody like Hiromatsu or even Buntaro, but she's been kind of watching him from afar we can tell and maybe seeing something in him that even those closest to him, in his inner circle, they can't even see.

I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about this very kind of game changing scene between Toranaga and Gin.

Rachel Kondo: This scene between Toranaga and Gin is one of my favorite scenes of the entire season of this show. The scene is played, so beautifully by the actress Yuko Miyamoto and every time I watch it, I'm riveted because I'm watching her eyes as she's pleading her case to Toranaga and her eyes actually are filled with tears that never seem to fall, and I'm always wondering how you do that.

But anyway, Gin seems to have kind of narrowed in on something, it seems, even his closest advisors and friends and son might have missed. And it kind of, it perks up both Toranaga to her, the case that she's pleading, but it also perks us up as an audience because maybe she is right, maybe he does have a plan, maybe, you know, we have no idea what what is going on in his mind.

But I do think that the character of Gin and the character of Toranaga share something in common that is pretty unique and special.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. They're both visionaries in a way that we can definitely see from this scene.

Rachel Kondo: They're long, long gamers. I mean, it's quite an ask. You know, this is a man who is on the brink of kind of personal and political collapse, and here she says, ‘let's set that aside and discuss my lifelong dream.’ And she presents this plan, which is basically the precursor to our modern understanding of the geisha.

And she asks him to protect women in her line of work and to treat them as the artists that they are and for the art that they do. And for the passion with which they put into their craft. And you know, it's just this, you could see her as she watches that stick of time going out.

You could see the ache in her. And she's pleading this case in front of a man who could snap his fingers and she be dismissed, killed, overlooked as she always has been. You know, it's a really powerful scene.

Emily Yoshida: So this episode ends with one of the more shocking moments, I think in this series, with Nagakado’s quite inglorious death.

It does change the kind of structure of our series in a way because it does ratchet up the stakes for Toranaga in a really specific way. This is his son. This is a huge loss in what's already a very dire situation. How do you think this changes Toranaga's plan, his strategy or, you know, how does it affect how he sees his situation?

Rachel Kondo: It's a great question because he's trying to either survive or he's trying to accept and surrender to what is about to befall him and we don't know. And no matter what it is, it's like you said, it's a very, it's a very pressurized situation and the stakes are very high.

And then all of a sudden his son dies in this very, very terrible way. And it feels so pointless. And how do you hold up the whole of your plan-slash-non-plan and also grieve, right? And it just feels like the world, or Toranaga's world as he knew it, is done.

Emily Yoshida: Even before the tragic loss of his son, Toranaga is at a low point in this episode.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Episode seven is, uh, hard, one of the hardest parts for Tronaga, right? Almost like a bottom.

Emily Yoshida: Back to discuss Toranaga's dashed hopes for his son is star and producer Hiroyuki Sanada.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Of course, he uh Turanaga loves Nagakato. That's why is trying to be hard to Nagakado, as an education. So, the young boys are always eager for everything, right? So, maybe Toranaga tried to teach him patience. Toranaga sees the possibility in his son, but, uh, not enough yet, not enough yet.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah, it feels like Nagakado as his son is sort of this one hope of a successor or an heir, or somebody to see through his vision for Japan in case he is not able to see it through himself.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Yeah. Very important for Toranaga because if he created a new world, dreaming world, it can't be finished in Toronaga's generation. It’d have to continue…

Emily Yoshida: A dynasty, yeah.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Next generations, yeah, so that's why important to teach him.

Emily Yoshida: In addition to all the other producer duties that we talked about and consulting on everything, you also had a lot of input into the stunt performances as well, right? So what did that involve?

I believe this episode has, you know, a good deal of fight scenes in it. Um, were you like there on set when combat was happening?

Hiroyuki Sanada: Before on set, uh, during the rehearsal or, uh at that time I gave them pointers about sword fighting or other things. So many different weapons there on set: sword, or naginata, spear. So all different way to use, so of course hard to them, for the young actors. Especially for the extras. And luckily, I had a great stunt coordinator, Lauro, who was in The Last Samurai. We worked together…

Emily Yoshida: Cool, yeah.

Hiroyuki Sanada: a long time. So he knows me, I know him, very well. So easy to communicate and then... collaborate.

Emily Yoshida: And trust, too.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Trust, yes.

Emily Yoshida: You need that with a stunt coordinator, I'm sure.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Creation and safetiness, both ways. And we had great stunt guys, too. But I love all the process.

Emily Yoshida: There's also such a, a scene I really love in this episode between Toranaga and Gin.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Oh, yes.

Emily Yoshida: And it's interesting because we’re saying, there's so many people who are close to Toronaga, are working with him, but I feel like very few where I feel like they're almost Toronaga's equal in terms of like their minds, their vision for the future.

And I love that scene because it shows somebody who is also thinking very far ahead about, you know, what her legacy is going to be. And you haven't really, you know, spoken to her before. This is almost like one of the first meetings. But it's such a kind of meeting of minds, I feel like. Yeah, I was just wondering if you could talk about that scene and what Toranaga sees in Gin at that moment.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Another lucky thing for me, I worked with her before and then she graduated the same university.

Emily Yoshida: Oh, wow, so way back.

Hiroyuki Sanada: Yeah, way way way back. So, easy to communicate on set of course. And also, I think Toranaga felt something similar in Gin, I believe. She’s also a strategist and something, you know, create something from the bottom. And then she became on top in her industry.

Emily Yoshida: In her world. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hiroyuki Sanada: And created a new world in the history until now. So, maybe he failed, maybe because he was in the bottom. But still wearing the armor tried to keep his pride. But only her came into his mind and took off his armor. And then, ‘wait, I forgot something. I have to be myself again now.’

Emily Yoshida: Yeah.

Hiroyuki Sanada: The Gin gave him something important. Medicine.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

Hiroyuki Sanada: During that one stick of time.

Emily Yoshida: That one stick of time, yeah, yeah. Yeah, because in a way, it's also just encouraging maybe to have somebody, everybody there is getting ready to dig their graves, and she's not. And that's important.

Hiroyuki Sanada: And then people doesn't know who gave you great advice? Sometimes not parent, not friend, you know, not Hiramatsu.

Like, we are, you know, we can come back from the bottom, even one song, or one movie.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah,

Hiroyuki Sanada: You know.

Emily Yoshida: Something unexpected.

Hiroyuki Sanada: That was Gin for Toranaga, I think.

Emily Yoshida: Gin helped Toranaga recenter himself amid the turmoil around him, with a vision of the future to match his own. But what is this vision Gin sees? What is this proprietor of a rural tea house building towards?

When we see sex work depicted in Japanese historical fiction, we often only get a narrow look at the geisha system. But the history of courtesans and the evolution of their role in society goes back long before the Sengoku period. It was only in the years that followed, in the Edo period, that the idea of the Geisha as we know it today was solidified. Gin speaks of that history in this week’s episode during her “stick of time” with Toranaga.

Gin is a forward thinker in our story. Set on the cusp of the Edo period, her work represents many customs that would have come in the following years and decades. Even the use of the incense to measure time was a relatively new practice for the era – a symbol of her eye toward the future.

Courtesans in Japan had long been seen as more than just those who traded intimacy for money. Women like Kiku, Gin's most prized courtesan, had to be skilled entertainers, musicians and dancers.

Gin sees underutilized value in her courtesans, petitioning Toranaga for the creation of a guild in his new empire. This formalization of the profession would lead to the creation of the highly organized and hierarchical Geisha class, and be the foundation of a rich cultural district in Edo, built on the skills of entertainers who brought their performance and artistry to the new city.

The first sign of courtesans in Japanese history appeared in the Menyashu, an 8th century anthology of poetry.

Like the tea house in Ajiro, courtesan groups had a clear structure, and in the Sengoku era, all these positions – chief, vice chief – would all be held by women. This would come to change in the Edo period, with men becoming involved and a more rigid structure for brothels being implemented.

Regardless of what the future holds for her, Gin stands at an important turning point for her profession – and it's hard to imagine anyone standing in the way of her ambition.

Emily Yoshida: The teahouses were one way for a samurai to relax in Ajiro, but there was another feature of the region that you can still experience today.

Eriko Miyagawa: Izu is, um, known for awesome, awesome hot springs.

Emily Yoshida: Producer Eriko Miyagawa returns to the podcast to take us inside the setting of some of the most tense moments in this episode.

Eriko Miyagawa: I think historically you know, hot springs was known to have great medical benefits. So, you know, samurai would nurse their wounds or relax in hot springs. I think that was quite common. I do think it was quite common for people to make a trip and visit certain hotsprings that is known for certain types of water.

Emily Yoshida: So Saeki, as Toranaga’s half-Brother, is a lord in his own right. But it’s also kind of clear that he sees himself as lower than Toranaga in some ways. And so I was kind of wondering about that relationship of half sibling and how it worked. Especially among the nobles and the Samurai class. And how it affected, you know, your lineage and inheritance and all that kind of stuff. Was a half-sibling seen as lower? And yeah, just what would their relationship have been like growing up?

Eriko Miyagawa: The big thing is who is your mother, right? Is it the first consort, second consort, or, you know, somebody much lower? I think that played a big part. And also the first son, second son, the earlier you are, um, you know, most likely you are, you're considered higher in rank. I don't know if Saeki and Toranaga had much of a relationship. They're quite far apart in age, and given that Toranaga was sort of pawned off as, um, hostage from a young age. But I'm sure Saeki grew up hearing all this, you know, this great story of this child, you know, war prodigy, Toranaga, and must have developed this great sense of insecurity and complex. So yeah, this is his moment.

Emily Yoshida: So, I wanted to talk about the scene with Gin when she’s having her meeting with Toranaga, which is where the episode gets its title from, a stick of time, which just refers to the actual stick of incense that burns down and the conversation that they have during that time.

It’s a very important conversation on a character level but it also has a lot of significance historically. Gin is sort of talking about the life of a courtesan and what it would have been like in that era, still kind of in the Sengoku Era. And it’s different for sure from what we think of as Geishas, or what will be Geishas, and kind of what she’s proposing in this conversation.

So could you talk a little bit about that scene and this conversation and the significance it has?

Eriko Miyagawa: Yeah, here Gin is planting a seed for what historically becomes Yoshiwara which is an area in Edo, which is Tokyo. I guess it could be translated as Red Light District, but it's, you know, it's a collection of tea houses and sort of licensed, controlled, protected and taxed by Edo shogunate, Edo government.

And that sort of protection allows for this culture that we now know, most famously, for Geisha to really develop and to become refined.

We pushed it a little bit on the show because I think, you know, in Sengoku period, I think we chose to portray Kiku and Gin obviously as sort of ahead of its time and very forward thinking and sophisticated. Which is something that happens, uh, you know, a little bit later.

Emily Yoshida: From characters like Gin, who look to the future, to Nagakato who has his cut short, the moments of our show are often punctuated by music that speaks to what's going on inside these characters' minds.

Leopold Ross: I think it was a lot about scoring the psychology of scenes rather than the action.

Emily Yoshida: Here to talk us through the music of our series is Leopold Ross, who, along with Atticus Ross and Nick Chuba, composed the score for Shōgun.

Leopold Ross: Shōgun is so much about what's unsaid, you know, and reading between the lines of the conversation.

So, as the music, I think one of the main roles of the music is to kind of score what's going on in someone's mind rather than what's coming out of their mouths.

Emily Yoshida: I wanted to ask just about the opening theme because now I feel like I've watched, having watched as many episodes as we've been through, I really have it in my head now and I've been thinking a lot about what it means and kind of the construction of it. Cause it really builds, We have this kind of cyclical thing. It really seems to tell a story. Can you get into that a little bit?

Leopold Ross: Um, yeah, I mean, normally our process is when we sign on to do a project, we like, will typically have a conversation with the director or the showrunner, as we did. And we'll read the scripts and we'll, you know, if they have a Bible or a look book, we'll kind of consume that information and then before seeing any picture, we'll just write some ideas.

And then we'll send them, you know, in this case we sent it to Justin and honestly, that was one of those tracks. Like we had never seen any picture or anything like that. That was just something that Nick had started and then we developed it together.

But it was something that Justin was really drawn to immediately and he said that's the theme. Just straight out of the gate he was like, ‘this is it.’ And we changed the arrangement and we got to a place where I think it's an incredibly epic opening theme and I think the visuals are fantastic as well.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. Yeah. It has such a kind of peaceful opening and I think every single time the title itself comes up and there's that kind of wawa sound. I'm like, yes! It's such a great build.

So, you know, we're talking episode seven this week, which is, uh, the episode where Toranaga’s half-Brother Saeki, basically has everybody hostage while they have them over to try to get him to join him for this Crimson Sky attack.

Leopold Ross: It's definitely a tipping point. Everyone's wavering in their belief that Toranaga knows what he's doing.

Emily Yoshida: Which up until this point, it's really felt like whether he's full, showing his hand or not, Toranaga seems to have the big game in his mind. And this is the first time it feels like he really stumbles. Was there any kind of specific change you wanted to have for this turn of events or this sort of, this act of the story?

Leopold Ross: The most important thing with this particular episode was in a sense matching like the visuals are incredibly atmospheric. There's so much mist going on from beginning to end in this episode.

And a lot of it was about what is the sound of the mist, you know what I mean? And it was sort of creating that sound and also creating this kind of growing sense of dread as things unfold because, you know, I think on the face of it, they're going to meet Saeki, that's his brother. Like it, it shouldn't be bad necessarily.

You think that our heroes are safe there. But you know, as we've come to understand, in the world of Shōgun, every man has his own agenda. And so sort of like about having this sense of unease, I suppose, that grows throughout the episode.

Emily Yoshida: Were there any musical moments in episode seven specifically that you remember really loving?

Leopold Ross: I enjoyed creating the section where I call it stories, legends and the truth. Because that's what Saeki says. It's, it's a long section. It's a kind of a, essentially almost plays as a montage, but it starts when they're all having dinner and Saeki says, ‘Hey, Nagakado, what do you like? Stories, legends or the truth?’

And I think the challenge there was sort of, again, having this sort of growing unease that sort of crossed different scenes that you have, obviously the dinner scene and then suddenly they're surrounded and the guy comes in and, you know, it unfolds of Saeki’s turning against them.

Then we cut away to Blackthorne and Mariko. Then we cut away to Toranaga contemplating. There's a lot of different scenes that this one piece of music covers. And it was sort of a lesson in minimalism and simplicity cause it's really it’s not a musically dense cue. It's really more about just this kind of insistent throb that goes on throughout the whole thing.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. And it's a plot point, or sequence I guess that really changes our idea of the legend of Toranaga. So in this episode, we obviously have this whole ending sequence where Nagakado meets his untimely end. But I was wondering sort of what your general philosophy was around action sequences and how you kind of scored around the movement and the action?

Leopold Ross: There is a sort of common thread in a lot of movies and TV to have a consistent kind of thrumming fast rhythm in action scenes. And Justin was very clear that he did not wanna do that. Which was cool for us because we didn't necessarily wanna do that either. So, that took some experimentation and it really, um, but it really came together in the episode two shinobi attack.

That's something that Nick actually put together and it's almost plays like a horror cue. It's, there's a lot of space and it's just about punctuating beats and then leaving the silence in between so that you can kind of feel the horror of what's actually going on. And the reason I bring that up is because that was a direct influence when you look at the end of episode seven and…

Emily Yoshida: I was gonna say. Yeah, yeah.

Leopold Ross: Nagakado's, that whole moment with Nagakado and Saeki. It's grown from that moment. The end of episode two kind of informed the way that we approached action from that point onwards. And the end of episode seven is a good example.

Emily Yoshida : That's all for this week's episode of Shōgun: The Official Podcast.

Next week: What awaits Toranaga in Osaka? Will the death of Nangakado change his strategy? And how long are his men going to be willing to follow him along his seemingly doomed path? Tune in next week when we discuss episode 8 of FX's Shōgun.

You can find a link in our description to episodes 1 through 7 of Shōgun. And if you want to dive deeper into the world of our story, Check out the official Shōgun viewer's guide. There's a link to that in the show notes as well.

Be sure to rate, review, and follow Shōgun: The Official Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Emily Yoshida, and I'll see you next week.