Shōgun Podcast Episode 5 | FX's Shōgun

Blackthorne (Played by Cosmo Jarvis): Yes yes there will be a terrible stench, but this is a gift from Toranaga-sama. It must be the best pheasant the village has ever prepared. Now, this next part is very important: no one is to touch this bird.

Emily Yoshida: Welcome to Shōgun: The Official Podcast. I'm Emily Yoshida and I was a writer on this series. And each week, after every episode, I’ll be diving deeper into the biggest twists and behind the scenes stories from the FX series with co-creators Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo, along with the cast and crew that helped bring this story to life.

Today we'll be talking about episode five, Broken to the Fist), and you know the deal by now, lots of spoilers for this and all previous episodes ahead.

On the podcast today, I'll hear about what it was like to perform in a landslide with Cosmo Jarvis. We'll learn the reason behind Uejiro the Gardener’s death with actor Moeka Hoshi who plays Fuji. And we'll understand the dark symbolism of Buntaro's actions with consulting producer Mako Kamitsuna. But first, we need to talk about that dinner.

Justin Marks: We used to call it the dinner date from hell. Just, just of like the worst, perfect storm group of characters to have to put together at the worst possible time in their story.

Emily Yoshida: That's showrunner Justin Marks. The unforgettable centerpiece of this week’s episode is the dinner between Blackthorne, Buntaro, Mariko and Fuji. A pressure cooker of a scene that ends up revealing something about every character in the room, starting with Mariko.

Justin Marks: Mariko, up to this point in the story, has been such a mystery when it comes to the specifics of what lies beneath the surface of her family, of her own role in all of this. You know, we've had allusions to it as early as the first episode when it comes to, you know, what baggage is Mariko carrying with her?

But for the first time to finally understand who her father was, what he did, you know, and, and really, uh, in a lot of ways, to really understand more about the marriage to Mariko and Buntaro and, and just how complex it is because of what her father did.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we understand there's this sort of resentment between Mariko and Buntaro, and we certainly understand why, at least from Mariko's end, just judging from the interactions we've seen between them. I mean, he seems like, you know, an abusive and unpleasant husband to be around.

But it's so much deeper than that. What do you hope that the audience sort of takes away about Buntaro from this scene? Cause I feel like every time we see him, there's like a new element about this guy that kind of comes out.

Justin Marks: The thing that is really fun to write about Buntaro and to explore with, with Shin who plays him so perfectly is, in spite of everything, Buntaro truly, truly loves Mariko and really, uh, that's his greatest flaw is just how much he loves her because he holds her so tightly and wants to protect her in such a way that it actually limits her ability to be who she is and to pursue the mission that she actually believes in.

The best way I've heard it put was that he keeps her in an invisible cage. And I think that he does that not out of a need to control her, I really think that his need is to, to protect her from dying, to keep her alive. But of course that is an act of control and that is an act of denial of who she really is and what she really wants.

And I think that so much of Buntaro is based on that fear of losing her. And um, there's a long way to go in that relationship now that certain cards have been turned over in this episode.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah, this, this scene also relies so much on the kind of the, the language barrier and just the difficulties of communication that are a huge part of this show and part of almost every scene of this show. and, and watching it back, I was really appreciating how kind of differently that is deployed in different scenes when it needs to be.

And this, you know, the first one I thought of was the translation, the first translation scene between Toranaga and Mariko and Blackthorne in episode two. And this is just such a completely different way to kind of play with that translation. The kind of weird game of telephone that goes between these three people.

Justin Marks: Yeah. And normally, in the movies that I can think of, in the television shows that I can think of, if there's ever an act of translation that is being presented on screen, for the most part, it's the kind of thing that we as filmmakers wish would go away, right?

It’s like oh, if only these characters could actually communicate then we wouldn't have to, you know, have this third party sitting there talking in such a way. In Shōgun, I think part of what's so fun is that that third party is such a crucial part of the scene, especially in this dinner scene, especially when we know that Blackthorne and Mariko have had this night together and have these feelings for each other.

She's left in this position to neutrally translate between the man of the house and the man of her house, uh, the, the honored guest of this dinner and, she has obviously a lot invested in this situation. So her choice in what to translate, what not to translate, how to translate what she translates, all of that is crucial information, and speaks to why the two languages on this show are so essential to keep partitioned because the act of translation is a drama in and of itself, and that, you know, someone who would ordinarily be kind of, in the hands of a lesser writer than James Clavell or a lesser actress than Anna Sawai might be wallpaper in a scene is actually very much a crucial part of the scene.

Emily Yoshida: So at the end of the episode, there is this earthquake, which is a major event in the novel, and it does kind of feel like this turning point in the story now that we’re kind of at the halfway mark and it’s this huge moment for Toranaga and Blackthorne. So can you tell us a little bit about like, what the earthquake means to you?

Justin Marks: This is a moment when something had to seismically give, it couldn't just hold on anymore. You know, this episode sits on this idea of the wa of the household, right? The kind of, this feeling of stability that is just kind of being disrupted by a confluence of factors. The affair that Mariko and Blackthorne were having, the arrival unexpectedly of Buntaro back into the story, Yabushige in his search for a spy that was eventually going to lead to Muraji.

And somehow something had to happen that would just kind of readjust the land, and, and hit a bit of a reset button. And, I think Toranaga, who of course is aware of everything, you know, in this world, just kind of I think is reacting on such a beautiful level to it all, the absurdity of it. His laugh when he sees the sword, the Fugazi sword that, you know, Blackthorne kind of hands him, I think is such a beautiful moment.

And it speaks to the truth of what Mariko said, which is that, you know, you give it meaning through your words and your actions. And I think he just finally had to kind of, in spite of the fact that there's obviously going to be a huge casualty to the earthquake and a ripple effect as it relates to Toranaga's army and his power struggle with Osaka, there's also something just very much about the embrace of life in that moment.

Emily Yoshida: Do you have a favorite, uh, scene or moment in, in five that you, you wanna make sure the viewer catches?

Justin Marks: I just hope that the audience of this show is keying into the wonder that is Fuji as performed Moeka because she is, you know, this fourth party in the scene, during that dinner scene. Someone who is, and it really sort of pushes the question that we constantly come to on this show, which is again, the matter of agency, who has agency in a scene?

And, you know, while editing this episode, with Ika, our wonderful editor, uh, of our second block. We were constantly just going back to our coverage of Fuji, who doesn't have a really, she's got one, two lines in the entire scene, but she steals the scene from three great actors.

You know, it's, it's such a great battle and her reaction shots, I think speak to the fact that she does have agency in this scene. But it's, it's an agency that requires neither saying nor doing anything. And I think that's kind of a uniquely feudal Japanese presence and, and something that you just, you know, you can't get in a modern day scene.

So, um, she really makes the most of it.

Emily Yoshida: As Blackthorne’s consort, Fuji is in a uniquely tough spot in this clash of cultures, often caught right in the middle of things. Speaking to me next is the actor who plays her.

Moeka Hoshi: Hi, I'm Moeka Hoshi. I'm a Japanese actor and I joined Shōgun as Fuji. I will try to speak English, but I will switch to Japanese in the near future.

Emily Yoshida: Okay. That's totally okay.

Fuji and Blackthorne have a very complicated relationship, or it changes a lot as the series goes on. What was it like working with Cosmo, who plays Blackthorne? Like how did your working relationship with Cosmo change as you filmed the series?

Moeka Hoshi: We didn't speak that much through the shooting. Actually in my acting with Cosmo, I felt that something can be conveyed just by making eye contact with him. So I guess Fuji and Blackthorne gradually came to understand each other and built a relationship of trust in the way like that, beyond language. Mm-hmm.

Emily Yoshida: Not just Words. Yeah, yeah,

Moeka Hoshi: Yeah. Yeah.

Emily Yoshida: So much of Fuji's duty is, uh, about maintaining the wa of the house. This is a big part of her job. And in this episode, in episode five, the wa is destroyed.

There's just, um, between the pheasant, the dead bird, and Buntaro's return, everything's just like super stressful. How did you kind of try as Fuji to maintain the dignity and, and, and peace in the house, even though, you know, everything was so crazy?

Moeka (Translated): Women in this era had to be very patient. It was a male dominated society, and this was a particularly stressful time for Fuji, especially when it came to the pheasant. But she works hard to stay calm. She admires her staff, and they work together to do try and keep things peaceful.

Fuji also knew that Mariko was in great pain and she was sympathetic because of her own painful background. This bond helped Fuji stay strong.

Emily Yoshida: Can you explain what happens with Uejiro, the gardener? Like why does this dead pheasant, which was a gift from Toranaga to Blackthorne we might remember, why does that lead to Uejiro’s death?

Moeka (Translated): They had to follow the order no matter what. Blackthorne was clear that if anyone touches the pheasant they die, so When Uejiro does it, he had to be killed. That was the rule of the Sengoku period.

It's hard to believe that happened in the past. Now that we live in modern times, it's really kind of insane. But that was the rule of the era. Even Fuji was involved with the touching of the bird, so she also had a responsibility to follow the rule, and that's why she demanded to be killed as well.

Emily Yoshida: What are you most excited for, um, people to see in Shōgun overall?

Moeka Voiceover: The nature of Shōgun is that every character goes through some transformation. Maybe they grow or do something defiant, and that includes Blackthorne.

And as he learns, so does the audience. The viewer sees Japan's Sengoku period culture and samurai culture together with Blackthorne. I can't wait to see how people respond to seeing the samurai customs given how different our world is today.

Emily Yoshida: How do you think Fuji changes over the course of the series?

Moeka Voiceover: Fuji lost her husband and her son, so she was suicidal. But once she gets the job to be Blackthorn's consort, she starts to find a kind of purpose. She hates it at first, but also finds it rewarding.

And when she starts living with Blackthorne, even though he's called ‘the barbarian’, she realizes he's a human being like her, and begins to feel a warmth towards him. Not a romantic feeling, but they start to understand each other, and that is kind of her transformation.

Emily Yoshida: Within a Japanese home in the Sengoku period there was a delicate balance of responsibilities and customs that maintained what was known as the “wa”, or peace, of the household. These included correctly seating guests, preparing the right foods, and most of all, following the word of the head of the household to the letter.

As consort, maintaining the wa fell to Fuji. She was in charge of the estate, keeping track of finances and managing Blackthorne’s chaos through her staff of five - a lady in waiting, a housekeeper, a cook, assistant cook, and the gardener.

Countless unspoken rules drove Sengoku households - many of which are still practiced today - shoes were removed indoors, the seams of tatami mats were never stepped on, and meals were carefully orchestrated. Diners would be seated on the floor, each brought a tray with individually portioned servings in covered bowls. The kamiza, or seat of honor, was given to the highest ranking guest, generally facing the garden, while the lowest ranking person sat opposite, near the entryway.

But these delicate dynamics of the house were lost on Blackthorne who’s still figuring out the ins and outs of his new role as Hatamoto, a position he never asked for.

Cosmo Jarvis: He doesn't really have a choice in any matter. Whether it's what he eats or who his consort is or what his rank is.

Emily Yoshida: This is Cosmo Jarvis, who plays Blackthorne. At this point in the story, Blackthorne is grappling with many aspects of his new life, but one of the most confusing for him is his relationship with his consort, Fuji.

Cosmo Jarvis: So in terms of the acceptance of Fuji, I think it blends into the general powerlessness that he's experiencing throughout most of this series.

He just has to accept it because there are people in charge and the people in charge have said, you've got a consort. But I think every time that he gradually incrementally accepts one of these new ultimatums in good grace, something usually good comes from it or something comes from it. And in this case, something very good came from it.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. You brought up the limitations of, you know, his choice at this point in the story that he's sort of been locked into this role, and this becomes a big issue when Buntaro returns. I guess, how is he navigating all of this sort of sometimes unreadable interpersonal drama going on between these people?

Cosmo Jarvis: At this particular dinner, it's probably Blackthorne who has the easiest job. Because presumably given what Mariko did with him when she thought she was a widow. I mean, it doesn't even matter what Blackthorne thought really, but at least Blackthorne knows now that Buntaro is alive, he can find some level of comfort in the confidence that Mariko isn't gonna divulge anything to this guy because that would be a catastrophic error.

So, the only remaining hurdle for Blackthorne is to literally moment to moment, sort of navigate the dinner and do it without giving any indication whatsoever that he feels one way or another about this man's wife and also doing his utmost to maintain the facade of respect that he now knows this country and these people hold such stock in. So it's just a very awkward dinner party.

Emily Yoshida: Once they kind of start this, this drinking game, it, it, it feels like there's definitely some sort of sense of, of competition or one upmanship between them.

Cosmo Jarvis: Yes, I think that by allowing himself to become inebriated in the way that he does, Blackthorne makes a mistake and especially given that Buntaro harbors a palpable disdain for Blackthorne from the very first moment they ever meet each other.

And, not just for the fact that his wife is living in Blackthorne's house, but also in general he hates him ‘cause he's a foreign barbarian and he hates him ‘cause he looks funny and he hates him for so many reasons.

So, Blackthorne's decision to become inebriated in this case, even though it may have, have had a, a short term payoff in terms of making a point that Buntaro can't drink as much, it opens the gateway to Buntaro having a, an avenue to allow his temper and feelings to, uh, emerge.

Emily Yoshida: And Mariko is also very, you know, strongly discouraged him from doing anything, which just feels so against his instincts.

Cosmo Jarvis: Yes. It's torturous. The amount of restraint that he is advised to embody by Mariko, but maybe that's what it's about in part.

Emily Yoshida: There's the earthquake at the end, which is just a huge set piece and seemed, you know, like a massive just physical thing to go through as an actor.

Cosmo Jarvis: Well, it was divided up into sections. The first section pre-earthquake was a scene between Toranaga, Mariko and Blackthorne addressing the aftermath of Uejirou's death. And about how that had basically confirmed to him that any effort to assimilate in this place was just a waste of time.

And based on the fact that they would kill an innocent man over something as pointless as a bird, I think it really disgusted him. Cuz he hates, he hates unnecessary violence and death. And right in the middle of that, this earthquake happens. And so we sort of stopped shooting that scene at the edge of the cliff, right as Toranaga disappears.

And then the second piece was done. They built a cliff. They built a huge cliff. I think it was made of foam with pieces of mud and trees and, and then we kind of had to run down to the bottom and find Toranaga.

And that was actually one of the fun days because uh, one of the operators put a camera down in the mud and was like, do you think next time you throw yourself down there, you could, might be able to sort of fall and put your head near where the lens is?

So I tried, I tried doing that and it, and I think maybe they used it, but it was basically just like, you know, the sort of stuff you do when you're a kid, just hurling yourself down a huge foam cliff. There were plenty of logs to trip over and there were plenty of kind of rock faces to fall over. And it was one of those days where you don't really have to do anything psychological because you're just throwing yourself down a cliff and it was great fun actually. And I can't believe they built a cliff. I'll never get over that.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. It's one of those scenes in the book where you're just like, what does this even look like? Cuz it's described as like the world almost coming apart. And then in the show, the world, the world is coming apart.

Cosmo Jarvis: And I know that some of the stunt coordinator, Lauro's team, they were put on a cliff with I think sheets that were pulled out from underneath them to give the illusion that the mud was being displaced, the ground was being displaced.

And so you'd had guys on undressed sheet sort of sheets or tarps or something, and then they were pulled with cables as though they were sort of on large pieces of earth that were moving. And yeah, the stunt team had a hell of a lot to do that day.

Emily Yoshida: And at the end of all that, you know, Toranaga loses his swords and Blackthorne gives him Fuji’s, which we've learned the backstory of them and they're not exactly what they seem. What's the significance of Blackthorne giving him these, you know, supposedly worthless swords?

Cosmo Jarvis: I think that all Blackthorne is doing in that scene is essentially killing birds with stones. He knows that Toranaga is now post-earthquake lacking swords in a culture where swords are extremely important. Blackthorne does not need his swords, so he gives his swords to Toranaga, which is the first bird. But at the same time by giving them to Toranaga, he is giving them a worth, which Mariko had previously declared was nothing. She had negated their value by slandering Fuji's father.

And, in giving them to Toranaga, Blackthorne can also kind of comment on the futility of thinking it's significant, that Mariko's statement about them being insignificant was significant.

Emily Yoshida: Mariko, Blackthorne and Toranaga are all characters rooted in Japanese history. But it's James Clavell’s novel from the 1970s that popularized the story with Western audiences. And it's a book whose impact goes beyond the best selling page turner.

Mako Kamitsuna: This novel kind of set off this whole Japanese trend, right? Sushi trend, kimono trend, the whole martial arts trend.

Emily Yoshida: This is Mako Kamitsuna. She was a consulting producer who worked closely with the creators to provide a Japanese perspective on production.

Mako Kamitsuna: I thought this might be a very good opportunity to remake this project now, to really, you know, put up the mirror for the western audience and western people to look at their own history of dominance and colonization.

Emily Yoshida: So we're talking about episode five this week, which a lot of it takes place around Blackthorne's home in Ajiro and also the introduction of Buntaro, Mariko's husband, into this already kind of shaky dynamic that he has in his house and in the town.

And Fuji mentioned something about a vengeful Tatarigami. Do you know what that is? Because she's talking about that in terms of the house being cursed.

Mako Kamitsuna: I think there's multiple things at play. Japanese people in general, have thought of any foreign intruders as an omen.

Emily Yoshida: Hmm.

Mako Kamitsuna: Right. So I think that was a generally held threat against anything foreign, and I think that includes you know, barbarians, Anjin-san and whatever Anjin does. Including, you know, pheasants and rabbit eating diet. Also, in Japanese, we have this notion of when there's a omen, your household will be hit by white arrows. When white arrows hit your entry door it means your house is cursed so that's something that I instantly thought of when Buntaro, he took the two arrows and hit the pillar of the entrance way. When Japanese people see that it does give off bad luck. Omen. That this place is cursed.

Emily Yoshida: Oh, that's so interesting. I did not know about the arrows and the curse. I always kind of wondered about Buntaro and his skill as an archer because that's such an important part of, in, in the book he’s just like unmatched. And you know, he obviously does this thing where he splits a single arrow. It's just like superhuman. But I always wondered if there was some sort of significance to him and his thing being archery, cause most everybody else, you know, uses a katana, but he's the skilled archer.

Mako Kamitsuna: Maybe that was subliminally what Buntaro was saying. I mean, he did start it out, this kind of two guys, right? Machismo game over the dinner table, and it escalates to his show of archery.

But maybe there is a subliminally, he's thinking, ‘well this place is cursed,’ you know, and he just, hit those two arrows.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. It's such a, it's such an intense scene and it really kind of, you know, we've had questions up to this point, I think, about the nature of Buntaro and Mariko's marriage and, you know, there's a lot of history that sort of comes out in this episode.

Um, and well, their marriage is obviously a very specific situation. But what was sort of the general power dynamic between a husband and a wife at this class level, at that time?

Mako Kamitsuna: So I always felt that, how people—how Western people—sees Japanese women, uh, there's a, it is already a certain bias. To… just because, right? That because they behave a certain way, they don't talk too much. They're very quiet, they’re very demure. But, politically, during this time in Sengoku Jidai women have always been a pawn to a political game.

So women, they, they're very aware of their political duty and they have to be smart about what to say, what not to say, what to listen, what to retain, what information. They're kind of a domestic spy, in a way, depending on the circumstances, right? So, I wanted to keep the perceptive norm about how a Japanese woman behaves.

But I wanted to keep the smarts. I wanted to keep the smarts. I wanted to make sure that each woman have a smarts behind. This is a very high stake households.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah.

Mako Kamitsuna: They're very close to, uh, Toranaga's servitudes, they're pretty high up people.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah, you start to realize by the second episode how interrelated everybody is, how, you know, this Toda family is yeah, a part of everything.

Mako Kamitsuna: So that's another thing. So Buntaro is not only a guest to this household.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah.

Mako Kamitsuna: He's Fuji's uncle. Right? Family member. So that also very complicated.

Emily Yoshida: Before we wrap up, I was wondering if you had any favorite detail, whether it's a historical one or an art department thing, from this episode, from five, that you would love for people to notice if they haven't?

Mako Kamitsuna: What would that be? Do you have, what about you?

Emily Yoshida: Um, well, I always liked when Mariko and Fuji were eating privately, just cuz I just thought it was such a kind of a little behind the curtain scene and I liked their relationship a lot, yeah.

Mako Kamitsuna: I like, uh, stone, um, Blackthorne, putting the stone back up, after the gardener died. There's something, um, the indication of beginning. He doesn't know what he's doing it for, but there's a beginning of respect for something that he doesn't even know what that is yet.

Emily Yoshida: That's all for this week's episode of Shōgun: the official podcast.

Next week: How will Toranaga face Ishido without an army? Where can Mariko and Buntaro’s marriage possibly go from here? And will Blackthorne’s cooking skills ever improve? Tune in next week as we discuss episode six of FX’s Shōgun.

You can find a link in our description to episodes one through five of Shōgun. And if you wanna dive deeper into the world of our story, check out the official Shōgun viewer’s guide. There's a link to that in our show notes for that as well.

Be sure to rate, review, and follow Shōgun: the official podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Emily Yoshida and I'll see you next week.