Shōgun Podcast Episode 3 | FX's Shōgun

Mariko (Played by Anna Sawai): My lord is famous for his trickery. When he was six years old, his father traded him to a rival Busho. As a hostage he learned one truth - enemies are everywhere and friends nowhere. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

Blackthorne (Played by Cosmo Jarvis): What happens if he is found?

Mariko (Played by Anna Sawai): He will be killed. And all of us.

Emily Yoshida: Welcome to Shōgun, the official podcast. My name is Emily Yoshida. I was a staff writer on Shōgun and I am your host on this show. Every week, we dive deeper into all the different elements that went into making Shōgun with co-creators Justin Marks and Rachel Kondo and the cast and crew that helped bring this story to life.

This week, we're talking about episode three: “Tomorrow Is Tomorrow.” So as usual, there are spoilers ahead for this and the previous two episodes. Listeners should also be advised that there is some strong language and discussions of violence in this episode.

On the podcast today, I'll hear how actor Nestor Carbonell learned to convincingly drown on screen, how Production Designer Helen Jarvis crafted those ships that raced across Osaka harbor, and how every strike counts in a Samurai fight with stunt coordinator Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle.

But first, let's check back in with Showrunner and Executive Producer Justin Marks to talk about Toranaga's daring escape from Osaka Castle.

Justin Marks: The boat race was I think the hardest thing for us to shoot on the entire series. And Charlotte Brandstrom, who directed that episode did it in some ways in the tightest part of the schedule too. But it's one of my favorite moments for Blackthorne, especially as a character, because it's just the moment where he is truly right or die. You know, where he's left behind because of the politics and he's finally been kind of counted out and. The way Toronaga looks at him, almost as a test of his worth to say like, ‘is this a guy who just destiny swallows up? Or is this the guy who's going to make his own fate in some way?’ I think you could divide these characters by people who follow the wind or people who learn how to control the wind. And uh, you know, I think in this case, Blackthorn Blackthorne just sails headlong into that wind.

Emily Yoshida: You walked right into my next question, which was just gonna be, you know, in your mind, where is Toranaga and Blackthorne's relationship right now? It seems like there's been a couple key moments where we see that eye-to-eye thing even beyond this language barrier. But, uh, how much of, of Toranaga’s trust does Blackthorne have at this point here?

Justin Marks: I think this episode really sets a stage for where those two characters are going, uh, in the future. This idea that Toranaga looks at the people around him by one criteria really above all else, and that's loyalty. How far will this person go for my cause? What is this person willing to do?

And I think in Blackthorne, he saw a very specific behavioral trait that he very much appreciates, which is this denial of what should have been his own death coming straight at him. And that's something that Toranaga escapes time and time again. And so he kind of sees himself in Blackthorne.

It's a little more complex than just straight loyalty though, because I think—and Toranaga probably recognizes—that Blackthorne's sense of loyalty to Toranaga is really based on what he thinks Toranaga can give him. In this case, that he knows that Toranaga is kind of an enemy of his enemies and that makes them very convenient allies. And I guess the question that we should be asking ourselves right now is, ‘is that really loyalty? You know. How does that work? And, you know, what do men like Toranaga see when they see men like that? Or what do women like Mariko see when they see men like that as well?’ So, how is that going to play out as Blackthorne gets closer and closer to Toranaga over the next few episodes is gonna be a very interesting thing to watch.

Emily Yoshida: So episode three really, really gets into the kind of, uh, the politics of the Portuguese in relation to the Japanese and a lot of that hinges around the black ship. Can you explain what the black ship is?

Justin Marks: The black ship is the source of all trade between Japan and the, uh, immediate regions outside of Japan. Because the Japanese and Chinese didn't really conduct much diplomacy at that time, the Portuguese and Spanish were responsible for being the intermediary. So what the black ship would do is bring Japanese silver for Chinese silk and vice versa. The black ship is, perhaps most importantly, the object of Blackthorne’s entire mission. He's been sent here to disrupt Spanish and Portuguese Catholic trade and the black ship is the ultimate symbol of that. So, he's like a dog on a bone when he sees that ship. And in a lot of ways that's really Blackthorne's principle preoccupation that leads him down a very set path through most of the story.

Emily Yoshida: So episode three, was there anything that you really hope the viewer will notice or appreciate? There's obviously a lot going on, a lot of little character moments in the middle of this big action episode.

Justin Marks: One of my favorite moments of the entire series is Buntaro’s goodbye. Shin, Shinnosuke Abe, who plays Buntaro, has the most incredible heart-wrenching performance. And it was always one of my favorite scenes in the book as well as in the script. But this moment of coming to the end of the road, realizing it's the end of the road, and then going through the calculus of how you're going to choose to die. Staring at his wife and all the things he probably wishes he could have said to her and then staring at Toranaga, the lord he's going to die for, and to have Toranaga address him by his full name, not his taro name, right? Buntaro, which is more affectionate and reserved for family—but as Toda Hirokatsu—and then bowing towards him in respect and I'm so consumed by the power of that scene every time I watch it.

Early early in the process, I used to see that scene from Blackthorne's point of view, I think, as a writer and as a producer, and to be really struck by the senselessness of it. Why? Why are you dying? You could still live.

Now, having gone through the Shōgun process and listened to the characters and listened to the actors playing the characters, there's only one possible choice, which is to turn back and fight and to die in that way. And it makes perfect sense. It is a perfect death. So I think that moment, for many reasons, will have many ripples throughout the rest of the story.

Emily Yoshida: As Justin said, Shōgun’s cast of characters can be divided into those who follow the wind and those who learn to control the wind. But there's one character we meet in these first three episodes who might be a little more difficult to classify.

Nestor Carbonell: It was so much fun to dive into this crazy character.

Emily Yoshida: This is the voice of the Spanish pilot Rodrigues - Nestor Carbonell.

Nestor Carbonell: This nut job, Spanish pilot who was hired by the Portuguese to travel and do business in Japan. And he stayed. He stayed and he's living quite the life and adjusting to life in Japan as this nut job who gets away with everything short of murder. So that was a lot of fun to hop into this incredible, uh, journey and as this sort of wild card.

Emily Yoshida: Yeah. And like so many characters in Shōgun, he is sort of caught between these different worlds and sort of exists in flux.

Like I think at the beginning he definitely doesn't always necessarily see eye to eye with the church and with the Portuguese and all that, but he's also not completely, you know, assimilated into Japanese culture and then you add in this Englishman into the mix. He can't help but be into Blackthorne. So how do you, for yourself, think of Rodrigues's relationship to Blackthorne?

Nestor Carbonell: You know, it's so wild because in a sense I think he sees a younger version of himself. You know, this is a young pilot—it's the first thing he remarks is how young he is—and then he thinks, he assumes he's a Dutchman, which he's not. And then he finds out he's British, which is the enemy to him, you know, because of the war between Catholicism and Protestantism.

And yet he sort of marvels at this man's chutzpah, you know, at his courage and his reluctance to accept his own fate. So he's at once mesmerized by this guy, sees a younger version of himself in him, but he also hates him because he knows what he stands for. He stands for Protestantism. And when he finds out later on, when he reads his rudders, what he's actually done, in murdering Catholics in Manila, he's definitely his sworn enemy. And yet the man saves his life.

And while he's not yet willing to ally himself with Blackthorne for that reason, that does come into play when he has a chance to save Blackthorne at the end of episode three.

Emily Yoshida: Which is such a insane sequence. I mean, when we were in the room, I was trying to figure out what is this gonna look like? Like it's just so, like these huge ships like, racing each other, but it's like, it just felt like so many moving parts. And it's very exciting in the episode as is.

Nestor Carbonell: Well, It was exciting to shoot it, it was extraordinary. I gotta tell you, Emily, the ships that we got to steer were just massive.

Even the green screens were a hundred feet tall. They're, they're, I think they're the biggest in the world, in order for us to be able to shoot with these massive ships that were also moving, they were all motorized. But they were on land, on tracks. And so, no, it was extraordinary to shoot.

Emily Yoshida: The finished product is amazing. I imagine as an actor, it's a very challenging and interesting scene to shoot as well, because there's actually so much going on between you and Blackthorne in that scene. Like the, the sort of love hate really kind of comes to the top there, but you're shouting at each other over these massive, you know, ships and everything. What was that like?

Nestor Carbonell: You guys wrote such beautiful humor, in the face of all this tragedy, whatever, and Rodrigues certainly has a lot of those fun lines. There was, you know, once you get to the set, and you get to see what you're actually steering and it's this pole, it's not a, you know, it's not a wheel, right? And I go, ‘oh, that changes the scene somewhat.’ Because there's a moment of, there's obviously this phallic moment here that I've gotta mine somehow. So I, you know, I was like, as soon as that line came up, I was like, ‘well, I know, I know what I'm gonna do.’

Emily Yoshida: Oh yeah.

Nestor Carbonell: So that's always a fun thing as an actor when you're either dealing with props or a set that you haven't walked into, you can investigate things even on the day and say, oh, make choices on the day. That it's always fun to keep it alive like that.

Emily Yoshida: I wanted to go back and talk about stunts a little bit. Specifically about the big rescue at the end of one and all that. Was that you, or how much was a double? Like what were you?

Nestor Carbonell: Um, no, a lot of it was me, in fact, I think it was all me. Oh, this was so much fun. So, I mean, add the ship and everything to the mix. All of the toys we get to play with. Then I drown, right?

And it's like, usually you drown and whatever, and it's, you know, it's all CGIed but you still have something, you need to work with something. So they built this massive pool outside with these rock formations, and I was lowered down onto a rock, they would have to paint this wire that they, so that they could lower me onto a rock.

But before I even landed on that rock, they had to see me drown. So they threw me in this wave pool. It was this massive wave pool. And then the problem was that I had to go underwater, but because of my clothes, the incredible clothes that Carlos built, I was pretty buoyant. So I asked them to see if they could put weights on my ankle so I could drown. But not so much so that I actually really drowned because it was a pretty deep pool and there was a lot of waves. But, but just enough that it would sink me. And it was—ah, I mean, I, I mean, I was like, this is a gift. And it was pretty warm water too in the middle of winter. I mean, come on. You know, I felt like a child. I literally felt like I was on a Disney ride.

Emily Yoshida: So part of what makes the show so fun to me is just that there are so many characters who are kind of like, ‘what's in it for me?’ They're kind of all doing their little schemes and stuff. Blackthorne obviously is just like very quickly trying to catch up and figure out, ‘okay, how do I not die here?’

But like, what do you think makes Rodrigues' style of that different than Blackthorne's or than Toranaga's even, who is obviously the king of that? Like he is the mastermind.

Nestor Carbonell: Oh, Toranaga is the ultimate puppet master. Um, I think his style is like, he is a mad man. A lot of that he puts on, ‘oh, it's crazy Rodrigues. Oh, he's just gonna fix this rude guy and he'll deal with him. I got him and I'll give him drink and then I'll shoot him, you know, all this stuff.’ All for an ulterior motive. I think that's his style. He's like, ‘look, I can get away with insulting these people. But I am indispensable to them in that I am a good captain.’ And they don't have other great captains like Rodrigues is painted to be.

Everybody's working each other and I think Rodrigues, ultimately, all he cares about, he's sort of hedonistic. He’s about, you know, whatever money he can get out of it, whatever woman he can get out of it, and whatever house he can be granted from his dealings. Um, it's all about serving the self for him.

Emily Yoshida: Mm-hmm. Um, and that's why we love him.

Emily Yoshida: Rodrigues may think he sees himself in Blackthorne but by the end of this week’s episode, it’s clear Blackthorne is on a very different path.

In this episode, Blackthorne is brought into the fold when Toranaga bestows him with the title of Hatamoto.

Emily Yoshida: To have the ear, and more importantly, the trust of a Lord in the Sengoku period was to have power and influence.

A feudal lord like Toranaga would be supported by a whole host of samurai with a clear hierarchy. Other lords with less power, called vassals, were both allied with and subordinate to him, but somewhat independent with their own armies. Yabushige, in our story, would be considered a vassal of Toranaga. And below the vassals were the gokenin, those samurai who would serve the lord directly and would fight under him in battle.

Hatamoto, on the other hand, translates to ‘near the banner’ or ‘under the banner’ due to their literal positioning to their lord in battle, closest by their side and the last line of defense.

But this closeness also applied off the battlefield and signified a strong trust in all matters. The Hatamoto had the distinguished privilege of a direct audience with their lord.

For Tokugawa Ieyasu, the real Japanese lord that Toranaga is based on, There was one Hatamoto that differed from the rest.

William Adams, the historical basis for Blackthorne, began as an advisor to Tokugawa on diplomacy and trade. But eventually he earned the title of Hatamoto, giving him a lot of influence when it came to foreign policy.

But why was Blackthorne named Hatamoto?

While it's difficult to know exactly what Toranaga is thinking in this episode, it’s safe to say Blackthorne's aid in the escape from Osaka proves his potential as an ally, who was willing to face danger head on.

Emily Yoshida: And to create that sequence, the show’s art department had the monumental task of building the two ships at the climax of the escape from Osaka - the Black Ship and Toranaga’s Galley.

Helen Jarvis: It gave us the opportunity to kind of really create a sort of textural difference between the two.

Emily Yoshida: This is Helen Jarvis, our production designer. Helen drove the vision behind each location, from the villages to the castles, the gardens, and, yes, the ships.

Helen Jarvis: Visually, the biggest difference, quite apart from the shape of each vessel, is the color of them. The black ship is effectively black because it was coated with pitch or tar really to preserve it. Also the characters, the captain, there's a certain kind of—not sinister aspect to them—they are slightly brutal. You know, they take advantage. They— so the blackness of the ship just seemed to echo that.

By contrast, the galley is a much lighter unfinished wood. It would be either cedar or cypress or one of those lighter woods. The black ship would've been oak and pine, heavier woods. So just a visual contrast there.

Emily Yoshida: Did you have different teams who kind of worked on the Portuguese versus the Japanese design for these things?

Helen Jarvis: No, not really. I had nautical set designers there. I was lucky, you know, I had some set designers who'd come off Peter Pan. So they were completely immersed in the European carac style of ship. They're very different. The first thing's obvious is the size. You know, the black ship was a massive, 1200-ton ship.

That was my first challenge is just in trying to reconcile the difference in the heights because the two characters, the characters had to talk to one another. So we did cheat the set down. We only built a partial piece of the black ship: little piece of the main deck, most of the top deck, and then another upper deck above that. So we did have many discussions about the relative sizes of these ships and how that would play, because a lot of the chase sequence is actually executed in post with visual effects models and such.

Emily Yoshida: It's movie magic.

Helen Jarvis: I mean, I hope it's all brilliantly clear to everybody.

Emily Yoshida: So, in this build, you were basically taking this, it was like a harbor in Vancouver and sort of transforming it into Osaka for the most part, right? It's so interesting because with some of these settings they do, quote unquote, exist today. Like, you know, you can go to Osaka Castle, but it's a completely rebuilt structure.

Helen Jarvis: We had a marvelous advisor in Kyoto, a Mr. Frederik Cryns. And I'd have to say, he had access to some extraordinary documents and scrolls and things that I'm sure are, you know, kept in vaults at the university there.

A lot of the decorative elements, there's masses of information about the, the beautiful paintings—fusuma, the sliding screens. And I thought right away, well, okay, I'm going to have the capability of changing my sets because of course these houses are made of panels. So that lent itself completely to shifting the scenery around literally and changing the look of the spaces.

Emily Yoshida: Were there any details you found about the castle or, you know, the living quarters, anything in this world that you were like, we have to get this in the episodes?

Helen Jarvis: I think the biggest thing for us was all the fusuma of the many different living quarters. They were all printed. We had a fabulous illustrator who worked with me creating these scenes, using reference and creating a different feel for each character's living quarters.

Emily Yoshida: Oh, wow. Like painting on the, like the interior, the walls and…

Helen Jarvis: Yeah. So she would paint on such, such density so that you could print, you could really blow things up. And what we'd do is we'd paint and we'd gold leaf and burnish metallic finishes, and then we'd send those through a printer—a very large printer, obviously. And it was fascinating. The results we got, I do hope that they appear on screen enough, you know, that we can actually enjoy them because they're quite beautiful.

Emily Yoshida: Were there any particular details in episode three, specifically, that a viewer might not notice on first viewing, but you're just really proud of?

Helen Jarvis: I think the thing that, hopefully people will pick up on, is that at this time, obviously glass wasn't used. Shoji screens were open to the elements, and so even in pouring rain, you would have shoji open because the rooms would be so dark otherwise.

Emily Yoshida: Right.

Helen Jarvis: So there's a lot of exterior that's brought in visually. That's how we lit the sets. Also, flooded them with light from the gardens, from the stage sets. And also the thing that's a curiosity to me, that was very hard for everybody to get their heads around at first was the, just the, the little oil lamps that were used at that time. And so this was another thing that Frederik was very, very keen on that we got the quality of the light correct.

So these are very sort of low, on short posts. These are like little dishes of oil with wicks in. And that's a little hard to get your head around at first you think, ‘gosh, you know, how are we gonna see, how are we gonna?’ But it's incredibly atmospheric. And I do say just, it just, it paints every scene. It paints, it makes, brings the costumes, the texture, the colors, uh, alive. Just that lovely, quiet, subtle lighting.

Emily Yoshida: Lovely, quiet and subtle. These words may describe much of our show but our next guest tends to work more in the violent, loud, and in your face department.

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: Everything we did with this, it was about killing.

Emily Yoshida: This is the voice of Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle, or Lash as he's often called on set.

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: I was the second unit director and stunt coordinator for the show. Took care of all the action.

Emily Yoshida: This show has such a diversity of choreography, especially in these first few episodes. What are the things that you, kind of, have to keep an eye on the most when you're sort of moving in between time periods and also just working in such a specific time period as this one?

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: Well, the thing with this one is we wanted to be very authentic, you know?

And today's choreography in most fight scenes what is wanted is is for entertainment. So we do a lot of extra stuff in our fight scenes these days, flips and special kicks, and we incorporate CGI. But this is entertainment, but it's also very authentic and historical, and that didn't mean that it has to be boring because we did every kind of stunt on the show. You know, we did horse falls, we did saddle falls, we did high falls, water work. And when we did have a fight it was very purposeful and it connected those dots to the story. So, a lot of fun. Especially like when there was Shinobi, we didn't do any flips, we didn't do any, you know, it was very stealth. It was very, what they were, they were assassins. They came in, they killed, they got out.

Emily Yoshida: We're here to talk about episode three, but I would be remiss to not bring up the Shinobi scene, which is at the end of, of two. Just because I think that was a really tricky thing on a historical level because there is so much maybe not quite understood or, or not even quite known about what, you know, I guess what we would now call ‘Ninja’ but is not exactly historically accurate would be.

And so how much was history, how much was sort of your own kind of interpretation as a, as a martial arts expert?

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: Well, that's where I really had to find my ground with this show because I've done a lot of other shows that have incorporated ninja or Shinobi and, of course, they want to go the Hollywood version. Right?

And so it's more superhero-ish and we couldn't have any of that. And I thought maybe they want a taste of it, you know, sort of thing. So I would go to town with the choreography and I had talked to the writers and producers and they were pretty clear on what they wanted. But even from that, I had to tone it down and make it more stealth and more very serious in, in the sense that they could be put into their position two to five years prior. So this person was just a sleeper, and then all of a sudden they're activated and away they go.

And I was really proud of that stunt woman that played that character because she, she did it with grace and poise and she was so obviously on a mission. She wasn't scared of being killed, she was just getting to her target and no matter what she came against, I mean, she had to deviate and take another room and go through another way and stuff like that. But it's almost like she didn't have to think about it. She had been in that castle so long, right. She knew every door, every hallway, every room. So she didn't have to think, ‘where am I going now?’ No, nothing like that. It was just, ‘oh, I'm going here, going there, going there. And I'll come in this door and I'll meet him right there.’

Emily Yoshida: So three is just after a lot of kind of political table setting, a lot of, you know, people talking in rooms and tension, we suddenly have a ton of action in this episode. So was there kind of a scene within this that, you know, you kind of looked at the assignment and were like, okay, how am I gonna tackle that one?

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: Yeah. Well, the components of the ambush were huge. And I had so many stunt people working and we had so many actors involved in that and so many extras. The number was just huge. So I mean, first off, you get the script and you read it and there, there was just so many components of that whole ambush sequence because there was stops for dialogue and hiding behind this and then attacking that and being attacked. Flaming arrows coming in. Somebody's trying to get away so they can deliver a message and guy get shot off a horse and we had some flaming arrows practical, and then we had a lot of CG ones.

And then, you have to sit there and plan out with the editor and with the CG producer and with the director and, and figure out where are these CG arrows coming from? Who's firing them, and where are they coming from? Because I have to have my real people react to it. Yeah. So you have to know exactly when an arrow's coming. Okay, you gotta dodge that, or you gotta duck here. Or, my stunt guy's getting hit and you're falling down and oh, you're catching on fire. So then we gotta light him on fire as well.

So there was, it was just like up and down the line, there was different stories being told throughout this group of hundred people. So, you know, I have to work with the director very closely and coordinate how that action is gonna help tell that story because each story is bridged with a big chunk of action. It's so many people putting it all together and working hand-in-hand to make it happen.

Emily Yoshida: Wow, yeah. So within the sequence, one of the many things going on in it is we get to see Mariko, for the first time, fighting with her naginata. This is like a real, this, this was like very much the weapon of a woman of that class and that time and this would not have all, not all been outta place.

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: Yeah, that's correct. I mean, women were, were Samurai too. They came, it was all a family situation, so they were trained. More often or not, from what I've been told, was to protect the village and protect home when the samurai warriors were away at battle. And so the naginata is like a spear but it's, it's curved in, and it's more like a sword on the end of a pole. Right? So they've got a long distance sword, so to speak. So that was the weapon of choice for the women but men used it too.

Emily Yoshida: It looks so heavy. Are they heavy?

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: Yeah. We, we made lighter versions of them. If you have a real one, it's quite a bit heavier cuz you have a steel blade. But we often didn't use the steel blade for safety reasons. And, uh, we had bamboo blades and so they were much lighter and easier to use.

Emily Yoshida: I mean, it feels like almost counterintuitive for it to be the weapon of choice for these like, noble women just because of, you know, it feels like such a big ungainly thing.

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: It is a longer range weapon. So, if a bigger opponent gets inside, you're in trouble. So to keep them back and, I mean, they were razor sharp, so you could cut 'em from a distance. And that's the other thing with this action is that a lot of it was over quickly because you get cut with one of those swords or that naginata and you're done. That's it. You know, it's, it's not just a little stab, it's your arm’s coming off or your head or, you know.

One of the biggest things that I fought for is—you'll see in a lot of fight scenes today, especially when it comes to sword work or any weapon work, that the stunt guys they'll clack their swords over their head. This guy will attack and that guy didn't even need to block because he's swinging too high. So if you're, if you're attacking somebody, you gotta attack for the target. And that's even more important when they're wearing armor because there's only two or three points where you can get through that armor.

So it's gotta be for the neck and it's gotta be under the armpit, it's gotta be the back of the knee—places like that. And so if they weren't hitting it, I'd call bullshit, right?

And then I finally got my stunt crew all together and I said, ‘look, you guys, we can't have any bullshit on this show. You know, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna go for that. And I don't want to call you out. I don't wanna embarrass you. So what are we not gonna do?’ And everyone would yell, ‘no bullshit.’

And it just—it was like our battle cry. ‘No bullshit.’

So the producers and directors got a good kick outta that.

Emily Yoshida: Oh that's great.

Lauro Chartrand-Delvalle: Because we’d go to start a battle and, ‘what are we gonna have?’

‘No bullshit.’

‘Okay. Ready and action.’

Emily Yoshida: I love that. That's all for this week's episode of Shōgun, the official podcast.

What will the death of Buntaro mean for Mariko? Is Toranaga safe outside of Osaka? And how will Blackthorne handle his new title? Tune in next week as we discuss episode four of FX’s Shōgun.

You can find a link in our description to episodes one through three of Shōgun. And if you want to dive deeper into the world of our story, check out the official Shōgun viewer's guide. There's a link to that in our show notes as well.

Be sure to rate, review, and follow Shōgun: The Official Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Emily Yoshida and I'll see you next week.