LOVE STORY: JOHN F. KENNEDY JR. & CAROLYN BESSETTE Official Podcast Episode 5: Grace Gummer

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Welcome back to the Love Story: John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette: Official Podcast. I'm Evan Ross Katz, podcaster and pop culture provocateur. Joining me today is Grace Gummer, who plays the character of the fascinating Caroline Kennedy

Grace, thank you so much for being here. It's so exciting to connect.

GRACE GUMMER: Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be here.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah. So you've worked on quite a few Ryan Murphy projects. How is this project different from the four others you'd worked on?

GRACE GUMMER: This is definitely the most, sort of, in depth character driven show I've ever done with Ryan. This is the most challenging work I think I've ever done with him. I mean, I was on American Horror Story where I had my head shaved, um, and my tongue split in half and my face painted as a lizard. Uh, that was, that was quite, that was quite different.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah. This is a departure from that.

GRACE GUMMER: Yeah.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Can you talk about the preparation you did in terms of research? I mean, obviously there's a ton out there about Caroline. How much were you reading? How much were you consuming? Her entire life has been so well documented, so what was the research process like for you?

GRACE GUMMER: Yeah. Um, I read a few books. I read a couple biographies of her. Um, I read an extensive interview on her from the early 2000s in the New Yorker, which was super interesting and, and helpful and insightful. Weirdly, being a New Yorker, uh, I, I don't know her. I've never met her, but I know people who know her and who are close with her. So not only from Connor and from Ryan and from, you know, some of the other creators of the show, I, I feel like I was able to paint a picture of her and her spirit based on people that know her and love her, which was really helpful.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So this show obviously explores the relationship between the character of Caroline and the character of John. Because, you know, they grew up together, they have these sort of parallel lives in many senses, and yet as we see on the show, the way that they live their lives is incredibly different.

GRACE GUMMER: The, the character of Caroline, um, is a very fundamentally decent and private person. She's very witty. She's acerbic. She's articulate. She's, she's sort of the epitome of grace and class, and I think she has this sort of sense of duty of upholding the family legacy. It's something that fell through the cracks a little bit with John. Um, so Caroline becomes a sort of important and trusted voice of reason for John. And in the absence of Jackie becomes a sort of, definitely a loving best friend, but also sort of a, a motherly figure. So they had just completely different ways of living and of living under the shadow of what it meant to be a Kennedy.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah, I'd love to zoom in on the scene in the character of Jackie's bedroom in which the character of Caroline and the character of John, through their grieving their mother, really connect in a way that we haven't seen before.

CLIP: I don't think anyone out there has said one thing about her that I'm gonna miss.

You're not gonna miss her poise? Or her love for the written word?

It's like they're all afraid to admit she was just a person. Like somehow acknowledging even the slightest imperfection would somehow discount their proximity to her.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: And I'm wondering if you could talk about filming that particular scene.

GRACE GUMMER: I loved that scene so much. Uh, it was actually, uh, my audition scene. So I was, I was really familiar with it, and I think it just shows the, the deep love and heart of the show. It's not only a love letter to this love story, to this relationship, but it's a love letter to the Kennedys, to their, to that whole family, to the relationship between John and Caroline. And I think in that scene, not only do you see the tragedies that they've had to endure throughout their lives, but the closeness that brought them together. Like no matter what they were brother and sister and they, you know, picked on each other and they had a sense of humor with each other and, and they were silly with each other and they, they just knew each other in and out, and were so familiar with each other's ways. It's like they spoke their own language. Um...

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yes. Now you studied art history in college. You intern for the designer Zach Posen and have appeared in fashion advertisements. So it's fair to say fashion is a big part of your life. Did wearing Caroline's clothes help you get into the character at all?

GRACE GUMMER: Absolutely. It always has for every job I've ever done. I feel like I start to draw the picture and, and sort of paint a portrait of who I want to inhabit based on the clothes that I'm wearing. I feel like I do that in my life too. I think, I think for me, clothes and fashion are, are, uh, extremely important to who I am. So yeah, it was, it was always the most fun going in and, and trying on all these amazing pieces from truly my favorite time in fashion. The nineties are like what I strive to achieve every day.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: And it's interesting because, you know, you go into this series with, at least I did, with such a sense of what the character of Carolyn and what the character of John, how they dress. And yet with the character of Caroline, I didn't have this idea so, you know, so in my head of what she would look like and how she would appear, despite the fact that there are images, of course, of her throughout time. Did getting into these costumes, did they sort of help build out the character for you in a deeper sense?

GRACE GUMMER: Totally, even though it was set in the nineties and a lot of it was nineties shapes and colors, Caroline sort of brought over the last bits of the eighties with her. I think she had that sort of old world, uh, Kennedy quality to her. And was a little bit obviously older than, um, than Carolyn. So it was a little bit more eighties, and a mom too. I mean the high top Reeboks and the mom jeans and the striped long sleeve shirts, like they were so important to the character. And even like little glimpses of those outfits for me in pictures that I saw that, you know, that I drew inspiration from, it really helped me feel like I was someone else.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Right? We have to give a shout out to the mom jeans. Mom jeans deserve their day in the sun.

GRACE GUMMER: Mom jeans are the greatest. I put my kid in Mom jeans. She's three. So...

EVAN ROSS KATZ: It's a fashion statement.

GRACE GUMMER: I don't know what that says, but yeah, it is.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: I wanna talk about the experience of making the show. When I say, did you have a favorite day on set, is there something in particular that comes to mind for you as far as a scene that you shot or just a moment behind the scenes perhaps?

GRACE GUMMER: Oh God, I had so many favorite days on set. Um, I can name a few. Uh, there was a day that Naomi, I just basically got to witness Naomi Watts and her greatness. I sort of forgot I was in a scene with her. I forgot I was on the receiving end of some dialogue and I, just 'cause I'm so used to watching her as this amazing actress, I was like, oh, right, it's my line. Whoops. You know?

The day I worked with Sarah, she's like a tour de force. She's, she gives a masterclass in acting. I felt so lucky to be working with her. Um, she had so many ideas and wanted to talk about, you know, what we had just shot and what we could do better. What do you think of this? And just sort of collaborating and working together in this way that doesn't happen often with other actors.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: You know, you were talking about that scene with you and Sarah, and I loved watching that so much because I was really curious to see how the character of Caroline would receive the character of Carolyn to see like, okay, how's she gonna feel about this new woman in his life? And, and yet I feel like there's a, an, I wouldn't say immediate warmth necessarily, but there's, uh, I feel like she embraces her in a way that I was surprised but delighted by.

GRACE GUMMER: Honestly, what I think it is, is that she knows how much she means to John. It, his whole being has shifted and his face is different and, uh, she knows him better than anyone else. And so she's wary at first, but, um, trusts him and then builds a, a real respect for Carolyn, especially when she finds out that he proposed to her and she refused the proposal. I think she's like, oh, she's got game and a brain and knows what she's doing, you know.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Right. Which I think the character of Caroline is not used to hearing about women in the character of John's life who receive him in this way.

GRACE GUMMER: Yeah. Who receive him as a real life, yeah, human being. Everyone's relationship is a locked box. You're never gonna know what happens behind closed doors and you shouldn't.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Right.

GRACE GUMMER: But like all you can really trust is that the person you love is happy. And I think that that's, that's what she's operating from.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Hmm. Now you've played characters before that are based off of real people, thinking about Nora Ephron and Good Girls Revolt and Barbara Landau in Springsteen: Deliver Me from Nowhere.

GRACE GUMMER: Thank you.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: What is the preparation like when playing a real person as opposed to a character that exists completely in the imagination?

GRACE GUMMER: I just try to capture their essence. I'm not interested in imitation. I do watch a certain amount of, you know, videos of them to understand the way that their voice sounded or their, the words in their mouth came out and that the, the way that their, it changed the way their face looked. But I just really try to capture the essence, the spirit.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah.

GRACE GUMMER: The, the sort of soul, the like vibe, the energy.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: You grew up in New York, you said, correct?

GRACE GUMMER: I did.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: So I'm wondering, it's like this show and this story is so quintessentially New York and this show got to shoot in New York City. I'm wondering what it was like for you as an actor getting to portray the story and have it take place the, you know, the production side of things in the actual city as opposed to on sound stages or in another city.

GRACE GUMMER: It was so helpful for me. Um, first of all, it's, it's a dream to live and work in New York. I'm a New Yorker. I was born here, I was raised here. Uh, the nineties in New York are obviously the greatest. It's, the show is also a love letter to New York. It becomes like a character in the show, and it was super helpful and informative, I think, for all of us to be in the same places as they were. Yeah. It was amazing.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: To close us out, you know, we talked about sort of your favorite scene to make, but I'm just wondering if you zoom out on the experience as a whole, what was your favorite part about making this show?

GRACE GUMMER: My favorite part about making this show, oh, there's so many parts. I'm just gonna say them. First of all, working with Ryan, working with his production company, it's such a well-oiled machine. Working with all those directors, all those actors. Working in New York City, being able to come home and be with my family every day. And playing the character of a woman that I admire and respect and really hope that I do justice to her character, my interpretation of her character. That I, I feel very lucky to have been given that opportunity as an actor to play someone with such, yeah, integrity and brilliance.

The scene where my character has found out that she has died. When John comes in and I turn and see him, and I see the look on his face. I mean, Paul, he was such a great actor. He just, the way he looked at me, I knew immediately what he was thinking and what he wanted to say. And it was like we had known each other for years. And in that moment, I, I just loved him so much. And again, just by looking at each other, I, I knew. And that scene was written so beautifully because there was no dialogue. Um, and it's very brief, but it's the minute that they become orphans essentially, and um, all they have is each other. It just reminded me of how close they are and how, how much they needed each other and relied on each other and loved each other, so deeply.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: With a sibling, you just look into their eyes and you're not only seeing them, you're communicating wordlessly. And in that moment it's like she knew everything just merely looking at him.

GRACE GUMMER: Yeah. And, and they've done that. So, you know, like you have a history, a lifetime, a certain, um, a way of communicating with each other where you know exactly what the other one is thinking and that you, there are no words that need to be said.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Right. And there's no other relationship quite like it, that you can just intuit that from.

GRACE GUMMER: Yeah. Yeah. And, and to share that kind of grief together, it just, uh, inevitably brings them closer.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yeah.

GRACE GUMMER: And then that's what you see as the show keeps going and goes on.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: Yes. Well, Grace, thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.

GRACE GUMMER: Thank you so much Evan.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: And I look forward to seeing more of your journey as the audience will in these, uh, upcoming episodes.

GRACE GUMMER: Thank you. I can't wait for you to see it.

EVAN ROSS KATZ: That's all for this time. Be sure to rate, review and follow the Love Story: John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette: Official Podcast wherever you watch or listen. And watch new episodes of Love Story: John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette on FX, Hulu and if you're a bundle subscriber, Hulu on Disney+. Terms apply. So many places to fall in love with this new show.

I'm Evan Ross Katz and I'll see you next time.