The Fly - Episode 6 | Alien: Earth - The Official Podcast

Morrow (Played by Babou Ceesay): You know what I like about killing synths? They don’t feel pain, so there’s nothing clouding their minds when I start chopping them up.

Kirsh (Played by Timothy Olyphant): See, I would imagine it’s the pain that makes it satisfying.

Adam Rogers: Welcome to Alien: Earth - The Official Podcast. I'm your host Adam Rogers, and we are just hoovered onto the face of this show every week, tail coiled around the throat of each episode, proboscis-like appendage stuck in the…well, you get it. This week, Episode Six, The Fly. Plenty of spoilers, but you can watch the show first. We'll just wait right here.

Today on the podcast, I'm joined again by Director Ugla Hauksdóttir to talk about all the diverging paths of the characters in this episode. And then Andy Nicholson, a production designer on the show. We'll talk about building, or I guess sort of rebuilding, a sci-fi world. Then I'll talk with Essie Davis and David Rysdahl. That's Dame Sylvia and Arthur, the creators of the Hybrids who are probably gonna need extensive couples counseling after all of this. And finally, co-executive producer Migizi Pensoneau is back to ask this week's big question: What is the morality of property?

But first. Let's talk about how the characters split up in this episode, each pursuing their own goals, until eventually those stories kind of turn back toward each other. This is director Ugla Hauksdóttir.

Ugla Hauksdottir: I think the bottom line is to really ground the audience in every storyline with the conflict of these characters and making sure that we're engaged emotionally and that we care, and that we understand the motivations and why these rifts are beginning to take place. Each episode builds to a climax and this certainly has one. You kind of start to feel that these storylines are connected, by thematics and then the tension is sort of you know, rising, rising, rising. And so it becomes essentially one movement towards the end.

Adam Rogers: There's this scene between Wendy and Nibs where she's had her memory wiped, and so she feels a lot better, but Wendy won't have any of that and says, no, look, something happened. We all saw it. They did that to you. And both of them, I think…realize that they are not being regarded as human by their owners. They kind of realize that together because of that decision to treat nibs as an IT problem, not as a person. So that's a big change for how they regard themselves and their own minds and bodies.

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yeah, and I think especially for Wendy, it's a major wake up call. Wendy's arc is one of independence. I mean, she is becoming more and more independent in each episode. She wants autonomy and she is tired of everybody around her, even her brother Hermit, everyone is constantly trying to control her. Everyone except the aliens actually. And I think we're beginning to, um, see, especially with this, I don't know if you, we can call it a friendship with the, uh, Chestburster. Um. And then in this episode, the baby Xeno, is that she is starting to really see the parallel between her being an experiment at the Neverland facility, just as the aliens are. This episode is where she sort of, breaks up with Neverland in some way. And, we have that scene with Dame where she basically says, I've refused to be Wendy. I want to be Marcy. I will control who I will be.

Adam Rogers: I wanna talk about Isaac. This a tragic scene–the eyeball sheep basically manipulates Isaac into the fly cage, and the fly kills Isaac. There's no dialogue. It's just straight visual narrative. So why tell that story that way?

Ugla Hauksdottir: Well, I think there's a lot of tension in that silence and that emptiness, it creates a lot of dread I think. We are aware of the fact that that lab is filled with creatures and so there's something really uncomfortable about that silence and I think the best sort of trick to impactful tension building is to jump between the subjective experience of Isaac and then jumping to the objective sort of view of the lab where we feel how vulnerable he is. And when he enters the lab, he's like putting on his vest, and he's so excited that he's been trusted with his task of being alone in the lab and Kirsh trusts him to go and feed the creatures. It's one of the few moments where we really see the child that he is because he's always trying to be a bit of a grownup. And so I think there's something in his innocence when he enters, where we immediately feel that this can't be good.

Adam Rogers: The scene first of all teaches us what's supposed to happen. You're supposed to open the special door, you're supposed to put in the food, you close the special door, and then the inner door opens and the monster inside gets the food. That's how it's supposed to work. Great. And we don't realize that the Eye Midge is learning that lesson at the same time as we are. So when he goes to the fly chamber and it doesn't work right, he forgets how strong he is. He breaks the door and decides like, oh, well I'll just break protocol. And it's a moment that as a viewer, is designed for me watching the screen to shout at my screen. Right? Like don't do that. What are you doing?

Ugla Hauksdottir: It also goes back to the fact that in that moment when he breaks off that door handle and he decides to step into the containment, it's another of these moments where it's because he's a child, he doesn't know better, and he should have never been given this responsibility.

Adam Rogers: You're making it worse.

Ugla Hauksdottir: It was, and it was devastating, when we were filming this and when the fly sprays this acid into his face, we actually did that as a one shot. So that performance was the first take and Kit was incredible. In the moment where he collapses and he's starting to twitch, is that there's this innocence in his eyes. It shines through this little whatever, six, seven, 8-year-old kid. And uh, you just realize like, oh my God, this is a child that I'm watching that has been killed by this fly.

Adam Rogers: It's also a lesson for those of us outside watching the universe and internally that the hybrids can die by misadventure. Even if the bodies can last forever, something bad can happen to them. So now there's jeopardy for them too, which there hasn't been really until that point in the show, right?

Ugla Hauksdottir: We are discovering here that they in fact have no idea what they're up against with these aliens. It's highlighting how vulnerable they are and Boy K, you know, he thinks he's in control, but I think that we're starting to see that this isn't gonna end well.

Adam Rogers: Yeah. His approach until this point has been one of, I'm a genius and it's pure intellect and none of this emotional stuff. It's a kind of a moment that like, no, this is really spinning out of control even for him. He–I wanna ask about another scene with him, because Episode Six also has the negotiation with Yutani. What's the difference between that scene and the, the sort of more intense two handers and alien fights and stuff that also go on in the episode?

Ugla Hauksdottir: It's one of my favorite scenes that I directed on the show. There's something about just being in that grand formal space and them sitting at the end of this, long table with this moderator and, Boy K comes walking in with his dirty feet, and he completely dismisses, Yutani the moderator, the purpose of this meeting, and obviously he completely outsmarts Yutani by the end of it. Boy Kay, he's somebody who, he doesn't wanna grow up. He doesn't think about consequences because he doesn't care about consequences, I think that is what makes him extremely dangerous. It's about wealth and power, greed, success and, the fact that, no moral questions get in his way. Yeah, it's a scary world that he's building.

Adam Rogers: It's clear that that's a room that the oligarchs are supposed to take seriously. And he's ignoring that. Like he thinks he's beyond even that. It's really chilling in its own way.

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yeah, and I mean, he turns the law on her, on Yutani. He's a mind fucker.

Adam Rogers: That's right. And it’s the way Sam does it. Yutani is such a coiled spring character and formal and playing very straight and he's like taking up the space of four people, putting his feet up and stuff like that. That dichotomy is really, when they're together, you really see it the most.

Ugla Hauksdottir: Yeah. And that's also not scripted. The fact that he gets up on the table and puts his feet up, I mean, putting his feet up was something that Noah had mentioned in a tone meeting. And I was like, oh wow. We're gonna go that crazy with Boy K, that's fun. And then on the day, the actor, he came up to me and we were talking about the scene and he was just like, Hey, what if I just like, get on the table?

Adam Rogers: Ooh.

Ugla Hauksdottir: And I go, wow, that would be kind of amazing. I hope I don't get fired for letting you do this. And you have not much time to make a decision. And, , we decided to rehearse the scene, see how it played out, and I immediately thought it was just so bold, so strong, and it really became such a great character moment for Boy K. And I was just like, this is gonna be really memorable TV. So, I was just like, you know what? Let's do it. Let's go bold. Let's try it. And, at least for me, it's, you know, it's one of my favorite scenes in this episode. So I'm glad that I took that risk.

Adam Rogers: While Ugla was making bold and risky directorial decisions, another crew member was tasked with building the infrastructure for the whole show’s entire premise. Every Alien movie has had its own look and feel. But Alien: Earth has to be literally down to Earth, which is a world that’s only hinted at in the movies. It has to be familiar, but also new. Kind of capturing nostalgia for a non-existent and poorly remembered future. So that was the challenge in front of production designer Andy Nicholson.

Adam Rogers: So futuristic cars. I didn't wanna do them because I don't believe there have been very many futuristic cars that have looked good. So I just said to them, well maybe the city's so hot and there's sea levels come up so much that the streets are just mostly rivers. There will be some vehicles 'cause we do have to have vehicles for the troop transport and stuff. But it's old technology cars. Nobody's really, you know, everybody's given up on having electric cars. They've just got crappy things that run. Boats don't have to be futuristic 'cause they have to be boats. You're not gonna try and make a science fiction boat 'cause they really haven't changed much for the longest time.

Adam Rogers: So did the idea that you were filming in Southeast Asia influence this idea of the rivers?

Adam Rogers: We hadn't defined that it was going to be Bangkok at that stage. I did a pre-scout to make sure logistically it would work. And also that visually it gave us what we wanted. Noah sent kind of a couple of page design brief of ideas about bringing the organic to science fiction. And also his view of the future, where it's a lot hotter and sweatier and so that was a very important part of it. I saw what was great about the location in the fact that the patina of Bangkok–

Adam Rogers: Yeah, it’s incredible.

Adam Rogers: –the parts of Bangkok that aren't modern. And it worked with Noah's idea for the future being a, you know, a place where the seas have risen and it's, and it's very humid.

Adam Rogers: Okay, so there’s basically three locations in the show, right? There’s the Maginot, which is the spaceship, there’s the secret island research base–that’s Neverland, and then there’s Prodigy City and the building there. So where’d you start?

Adam Rogers: My first conversation with Noah was all about the kids, the children, what they meant. And, uh, in our call, I mainly talked about what Neverland had to be because it was a, you know, Noah wanted it to be a joyful place. But it was also a, a sinister place. And there was about, there was about the balance of making it sort of that anemic…I took a lot of references from photos of, of, um, children's hospitals which, because of the color palette they use and because of the, the look and, and the style of, you know, the furniture and it's all, friendly. You know, there might be murals on the wall, but yet it's still a hospital like that—

Adam Rogers: Tell me if, if I'm right about this 'cause the sense that I got of it was that the building is sort of brutalist and scary, but then the furnishings and the decor are kind of friendly and happier.

Adam Rogers: The outside of it, I just wanted to come up with a very identifiable architectural form that was semis submerged in the landscape. We were doing a lot of stuff on stage, so I didn't wanna have endless views. And that also made it more claustrophobic. And keynotes I took from the, uh, you know, incredible design of Alien and ideas were every room's not secure for creature invasion because they all got big vents. Every room when you look in there has a, has an air vent. So if you're a human, you can't get outta the room. But if you are an alien or a bug or, or you know, all of the nice things we come to meet in the show, you can go everywhere you want to.

Adam Rogers: People really gotta learn to design for alien invasions, come on. Like–

Adam Rogers: Well, that,

Adam Rogers: –never seen one of these movies?

Adam Rogers: We, you know, I mean, for the big alien it was fine. I mean, they just tend to bash everything down. But for all the small guys, we'd overlook that. Even in, even Boy Kavalier's office has got, um, vents in the walls.

Adam Rogers: Can I ask about a specific piece of furniture? I wanna ask about the huddle couch. With the multicolored, the sort of orange and white, which was, which is like, oh, that's

Adam Rogers: Oh, the conversation pit.

Adam Rogers: Yeah. The conversation pit, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Adam Rogers: Yeah. I really wanted to do a conversation–I mean, this was, this was for, um, Dame Sylvia's office that is the, uh, most intimate, but also had to be in the most scary room. And it was a kind of a therapy room, a playroom. And also some of the most sinister lines of dialogue between Boy Kavalier and Dame Sylvia, and between Dame Sylvia and Wendy all happen in there. They're, you know, utterly terrifying in terms of their deceit and in terms of what she's physically saying and their callousness.

Adam Rogers: The hearkening to the 1970s, you know, aesthetic as like a retro aesthetic at that point, right?

Adam Rogers: The aesthetic throughout was, look at what those first two films look like. Look at what the interiors are. Look at the design. I mean, in, in, in Alien, you don't see any Earth, Earth stuff. But all of the furniture, all of it, it is from that period. But it was what they, you know, they, they, the first one particularly wasn't a huge budget movie. It's what they, they bought in that was futuristic stuff of that, that period. So they were contemporary of that period. Futuristic leaning tables, chairs. It was kind of a vision of the future, which we didn't go to.

Adam Rogers: It's a fascinating problem and problem solving approach because it's like the thing that happens at Disneyland Tomorrowland, right? Is that they build a thing that looks futuristic and then it lasts for a long time, and then it doesn't look futuristic anymore.

Adam Rogers: I don't know a film fan or a designer who's not totally in love with what Alien looks like as a spaceship, and it's, it's an absolutely classic piece of science fiction set design. It's not only appropriate for the show, it was groundbreaking in terms of what it did, in terms of the way the sets were built and, and what I learned about that through research, which was a fascinating part of the thing for me. I mean, between getting the job and starting it, I just spent all the time I could finding out as much archival stuff about the sets that I could.

Adam Rogers: Well, let's talk about those sets. You're talking about the Nostromo, which is the spaceship in Alien and the Sulaco, which is the spaceship in Aliens. What did you find out in your research that you could pull into the design of the Maginot?

Adam Rogers: I think the way I approached that was, was very much as if you're doing a historical period film that you, you look at what the design was and the style was at the time, and you go into it and you use the original. One of the original art directors wrote a book and one of the things he talks about is the corporate nature of the inside of Alien’s set and how the, all the sets should feel like a McDonald's of the time in terms of their sort of plasticy. They've got all fixed furniture and stuff. So we took that as the element and you know, this is a Yutani ship it so thatNostromo, so the Sulaco, so what is it that are in there that much like buying. Three different models of, of BMW will have the same switches in them and, and similar seats 'cause they just do that. This is what the ship does. And those repetitive elements were things we started looking at for detailing. Um, and in terms–if you are mass producing ships, then they're gonna have common features in them. I mean, there's a ton of Easter egg elements taken from both ships.

Adam Rogers: Gimme an example of one of those Easter eggs. What's something that like I might have missed, but that was important to you when you built the set?

Adam Rogers: What was great was, um, I found out when we're talking shipping containers–and this is very nerdy–the shipping pallets that were used in Alien, they're a red, kind of a dried blood, plastic color. They've got bits of silver paint on 'em as well. And that's because previous to being used in Alien, they've been used on Star Wars. And on Star Wars, they just used them for floors and they painted them silver. And they were, they were owned by a, by a prop house in the UK and, and they just rented all of them. But after Alien, the props company threw them out. So now they're a highly desirable collectible. And I, and, um, I found a photograph of a guy selling them on eBay. He was standing next to it and I had all the measurements and everything. So we made thousands of those. We made them in metal for flooring, for the walls, for everything. And that gave us so much of the texture of the look of the interior. And also in and around Bangkok. There are hundreds of very organized, you know, scrap vehicle breaking yards. And we could get so many of the greebly bits that make up the engineering part of the set. There's so much that was there, was easy to get and, and, and, and not expensive. So we, we could just get, 'cause the way you do a set any kind of science fiction interior like that, is you start off with the walls, you get in big elements, you use 'em in unusual ways. You paint in different colors and if you get enough pieces from a, from a car, you know, bits of manifolds, bits of engines, carburetors, all of that kind of stuff. You put in big lumps and you plum together, then you go back again, you go back again. And find things that were very similar to the stuff that was used in the 1979 film. And our prop Master Ty, prop Master War, uh, did a fantastic job of, of set decorator.

Adam Rogers: Well we, we've talked a lot about the sets, but obviously there's a lot more that has to get designed. There's the boats and futuristic cars are, I guess, kind of, not in this case, but one element. It's always been key to the alien universe, especially that second movie is that military side of things. Can you talk about how you designed the futuristic weapons a little?

Adam Rogers: We decided that just much like now you, you have your own militia and your own militia would be using the, the, the top of the range military spec weapons. And I didn't see the point in defining the difference between Weyland Yutani and Prodigy weapons because everybody combined M16. So that was sort of it in my head. And it also meant that you didn't have to agonize about the design of the stuff. And also it's a great Easter egg in that we, uh, you can buy repro versions of both all of all of the Alien and Aliens weaponry. And so we were able to look at photographs of that to recreate it and we could use them. And don't think I'm wrong in saying that an awful lot of sci-fi weapons since have been based on the look of those and how they work, and they're a classic piece of weapon design I think.

Adam Rogers: While some people use weapons to fight their battles, others use words. Arthur and Dame Sylvia are a core relationship on the show, and in this episode they have a philosophical disagreement so fundamental that it breaks their marriage up, it breaks their scientific partnership, and it screws things up so badly that it redirects the rest of the story from here on out.

So we'll start with Essie Davis first, who we heard from in Episode Two, to get her perspective on what's going on between Dame Sylvia and Arthur here, and how the actors managed to make that relationship feel grounded in the midst of everything so weird going on around those characters.

Essie Davis: David and I, as soon as we met each other, just instantly fell in love with each other. And we would actually improvise our relationship often. We'd get together and have these quite long in depth conversations about work and Boy K and, and our children and what we're going to do but it was really grounding for the two of us to have this, like, a history of a relationship that felt really connected because we're often in a workspace together, not really dealing with the fact that we're married. And so to have built that world together was really great. And it felt really important, particularly for the choice that she makes to stay working for Prodigy essentially, because that's such a shock for both of them.

Adam Rogers: Yeah, they, I mean, to be clear, Nibs has PTSD at that point. And they get given an order, right? Mind wipe her. And Arthur says, I don't wanna. So what's Dame's perspective on saying yes to that order?

Essie Davis: Well it's, clearly not what she would like to do. She would like to take the time to give Nibs some therapy and help her have processed that traumatic experience and get back into, the capable, able brain of the child she was. Cause, you know, when they all first are sent out on that mission, I think Dame's quite interested to see how well they will cope with it not knowing that there's going to be aliens. So she's expecting them to have this quite rewarding experience of going out and helping people. But what they have instead is this very scary and confronting situation. And many of them are quite terrified by it. And well, wouldn't it be easy? Wouldn't it be great if we could just cut out trauma, like wipe it from someone's memory and that would be great. Like just take the pain away, like get rid of it.

Adam Rogers: Well, yeah, it would actually be pretty great if you could do that kind of editing, I guess. But it has narrative consequences. Like, she's fine once that happens. The thing that freaks Nibs out is not the trauma, it's the fact that her memory can be altered so easily that that proves that she's not really human. You fix the PTSD, but then you give her something even worse.

Essie Davis: We fixed the trauma, but we gave her something bigger to worry about.

Adam Rogers: Right.

Essie Davis: Therefore, who is in control of her body? Who's in control of her? Is she a puppet? And in fact, Arthur's right. What if it makes it worse? because Dame knows the relationship of Atom with Boy and because she knows Boy's flippancy. Although she doesn't expect Arthur to get fired, she knows that they could just be kicked off this project. And the children could be taken out of her hands. It's like, do you give up your life's work? Or do you do as you're told? So, I think she says yes, she will wipe this memory. Hoping to then be able to find a way to nurture Nibs further down the track.

Adam Rogers: And now from the other side of that relationship, here's David Rysdahl, who plays Arthur Sylvia, Dame's husband, on what's going through Arthur's mind at this point in the story.

David Rysdahl: I think Arthur’s a transhumanist, he believes that these children…that this, it's a new type of human that we're creating, and they, and we need a new code of ethics for these humans. You know, we have to honor these children that are now supercharged and they're not just machines. And I think he's being surprised by how much he cares for them. Like his heart is growing and his and his confusion is growing and he's like, this is much more complicated than I first thought it was gonna be. He starts to fall in love with these Hybrids. They become his children. And with that comes the complicated morality of it.

Adam Rogers: I don't know, I don't know what this says about me as a parent, but Kirsh has some parental moments too, it's not the I love you dad, but it's still fatherly…

David Rysdahl: And it's like he's a Synth, so it's like this idea of like, you can, you are more than human and you should keep going too. I think like Arthur doesn't understand, there's only a certain place that Arthur can go with these Hybrids. Like, he's limited. Whereas, with Kirsh, he knows what they can be and they can define their own future. And that's, you're right, is fatherly. He's pushing them to grow and take this world.’Cause it's theirs. And I think there is a conversation between Arthur and Kisch, you know, about, you know, two fathers who are approaching it differently. And also what this show is, is bringing forward saying like, humanism puts us up at the pinnacle, but now we're creating something that's maybe more powerful than ourselves. And that's scary. And it's gonna come with a redefining of what it means to be human on planet Earth. And our children are gonna be more advanced. And that's terrifying and also helpful. And the show I think shows both sides of that.

Adam Rogers: I talked to Essie Davis, but I want to hear from you too, what it was like to figure out that relationship dynamic as just as, as actors playing the scenes.

David Rysdahl: Well, when you meet another actor who's playing your partner you just kind of see what's naturally there. And I love that she was older and had more power and was the brains behind the operation. And I was more of the tech guy. And you know, Alien, the whole franchise is about power. And to see power dynamics within a relationship I think is such a, a, a gift.

Adam Rogers: Because Arthur is one sort of step removed from the inner circle of decision makers, whatever. He's less corrupted. So like he, he doesn't have visibility on all the things they're doing, but then when he finally gets visibility on it, he can sort of go like, wait a minute. Holy crap. I didn't this, this is much worse than I thought it was–

David Rysdahl: That's exactly right. That's–

Adam Rogers: –like he didn't–

David Rysdahl: –right. His life is simple, make this work. And he believes in what he's doing. And from her perspective, I mean, Essie, I'm sure had her own, but she's, she's trying this impossible task of appeasing the man she's working for while also trying to do good. And, and I remember Esee coming to me being like, I feel like every scene I'm flip-flopping. And I said, that's exactly right. And it's per–it's perfect for this character who's has to be the go-between, between the power and the science and trying to build a plane while flying it. She's more of a politician than Arthur is. Arthur is more of a purist and an idealist and is allowed to be that because he doesn't have to live in the politics of the company. But that's a little bit of the arc. I start to question my wife and also question what we're doing. And that's the tension. You feel that through the first six episodes and then it breaks in the sixth episode. The crisis of faith once we start overstepping these boundaries.

Adam Rogers: The crisis is a very small bore one. In some ways, it's what to do about that specific thing of nibs having PTSD basically. And to say, we're not gonna treat this like we would treat a human. We're gonna treat this like we would treat a, a–

David Rysdahl: –A computer. A malfunctioning computer.

Adam Rogers: –a machine at best, a product at worst. Because that's the thing that turns out to be his line. His line is, no, we have to treat them like kids.

David Rysdahl: Yeah, we're just blasting through all these protocols we're, we're gonna erase this kid's memory, this Hybrid's memory that is so wrong. And we owe this kid something and now my wife's so okay with that? And I feel so complicit so that the guilt that Arthur's having, I'm–I've been a part of this machine and I, and I can't believe that I've given my gifts to this. And if we're willing to take that first step, then we're really willing to control these things. They're not gonna have autonomy. They're gonna be under our thumbprint for the rest of their lives. It's a huge line for Arthur and a huge betrayal and so I think our marriage is very much in question. My life was threatened and my wife, my wife didn't stand up for me and I'm now having to leave. And I'm leaving my whole life and everything that I've worked for And, my–

Adam Rogers: –and she chose Boy K, too–

David Rysdahl: She did, she chose Boy K in that moment. We could've had a united front against this. But we didn't, we didn't stand up to this. And if Dame won't stand up to him, who will? I'm like, all right, and then realizing that we are woefully inadequate in how we've approached this. And terrified at what we've created, the Frankenstein we've created and the, the man that we've empowered through this. That's very dangerous. And then this young man comes in and is just worried about his sister and I can't say that they're gonna be safe. I've seen now what, what we're doing with Nibs and they're all gonna be controlled by this company and this conglomerate. And I'm like, oh yeah, it's bigger than me too, and I'm part of this. And fuck it. I'm taking the ship down with me in a way in that moment. And I love that, it’s a Noah Hawley irony is that moment of kind of selflessness or, doing the right thing leads to my downfall, you know?

Adam Rogers: It also matters that he thinks that Wendy is worth saving. If he thought, if he was of the mind that Boy Kavalier has, which is just like, that's just a, that's just a laptop–

David Rysdahl: Yeah.

Adam Rogers: Then he wouldn't, then he wouldn't be saying that to Hermit.

David Rysdahl: Yeah. She's a human at the bottom of it. And, and Boy Kavalier doesn't care about humans either. You know, he doesn't, he has empathy for no one besides himself besides, like, he, he has this very high view that like he's just trying to push humanity forward in this like sense that if you, if you get way too far away from real life human beings and what we owe actually life itself, which is like what that first shot with the scorpion in the first episode. This idea like, we always see it, these scorpions from the human's point of view, but the scorpion's also afraid of us and so that, that question of like of, well, how far do we draw that circle of empathy and do we owe these machines–do we owe also the other creatures on Earth, do we owe these aliens that come in more empathy than we've, uh, allowed them in the past? I think is central throughout. I think it is unanswerable question, but it's one that we as humans are gonna start facing in many more profound ways. But this idea that this is something new, it's still humans, and they're deserving of the same kind of dignity and self-respect that we give to humans. Even though we don't give humans very much dignity in this alien world. You know?

Adam Rogers: Right. Even humans don't get it.

David Rysdahl: Yeah.

Adam Rogers: But then he falls kind of into Slightly’s trap in a way…and when he realizes he's in trouble, 'cause he's looking at an egg, an alien egg…Slightly says–expl–tries to explain himself by saying they have my family. And Arthur says, I have a family too.

David Rysdahl: Oh yeah. It shows that I do believe he's a human because I'm pleading with my own humanity. You know, Adarsh has these like beautiful big eyes and plays that innocence and then that hardness. And I'm just trying to get out of there and realizing suddenly, oh, I read this whole situation very wrongly. I don't know why he's talking about his family, but I'm realizing it's a, it's a decision on his part to lock me, and they're not opening up and I'm being sacrificed. And, and so I plead with him, like I have a family too. But yeah, it was a powerful, powerful moment of me as also as an, as a caged animal, as a scorpion trying to get out of his cage, you know, as I'm being fed to a predator. So it's this, this, it's, it's past humanity. It's just kind of me as an animal trying to survive also in that moment.

Adam Rogers: And just as a, as a matter of nerd interest, what's it actually like to get face hugged? Like to have a face that you have the Facehugger on you? What's it like?

David Rysdahl: Weta, they're so. They're so great. There's so many different face huggers. So they have, they have one that you can breathe through. They have one that, uh–

Adam Rogers: Good.

David Rysdahl: –Yes, it's all good. Um, there's, there's the ones that are animatronics. So like later on when it's wrapped around, they, they have, they press these little buttons and it's moving. And then they wrap it around your head. So they tie it in your back, in, in, um, it's little with these little, uh, rubber bands and it's really snug on there. And then it's KY Jelly over the whole thing, so you're greased up but it really, we did it for about we couple hours, you know, and I remember going to see Romulus a few months later and I had PTSD in the theater 'cause I just experienced that. Uh, 'cause you're imagining that for hours Which, yeah, I had, we have weird dreams that night. But it's so, uh, it's why you as an, I love those experiences as an actor, you're like, when else will I be able to do that? You know, that's, that's why you got into this thing, uh, in the first place.

Adam Rogers: Well, finally, let's zoom out a little bit. Remember, the Hybrids aren't just a philosophical experiment. They're also supposed to be a product sold by a tech trillionaire oligarch who wants to get even richer by selling immortality. So the show sets up all kinds of interesting, thorny questions about control and ownership versus autonomy and humanity. Let's bug co-executive producer Migizi Pensoneau about these tensions.

Migizi Pensoneau: If you think about space exploration as like another step in manifest destiny, then you're looking at people who claim wherever they get to first. And so if by right of discovery, find some creatures and those creatures belong to them a hundred percent. So Weyland absolutely a hundred percent owns those creatures. At least those individual creatures. But Boy Kavalier is savvy enough to be like, Oh, well there are quarantine regulations that I can use to my advantage to keep these creatures for longer than I would have. It's funny because this is such a nitty gritty conversation about just the idea that Boy K is taking as much advantage of Yutani as he can. And when it comes to property and when it comes to damage, like what is owed, what are the considerations? There's a bit when you Yutani and Boy Kavalier have their first conversation, she opens with, it's been a very expensive day and he's like, yeah. And as an afterthought, he goes, you know, not to mention lives lost. And she's like, yeah, sure. You know, like the human consideration always comes second to the financial consideration.

Adam Rogers: So the Xenomorphs are under, are kind of, whatever millennia old human-centric ideas about ownership property. But that's something that Wendy kind of takes issue with. And since she's the one who can communicate with the aliens, she points out that they didn't ask to be there. So what does that say about Wendy's approach to that human centrism?

Migizi Pensoneau: Look at it in sort of two ways. One is from the autonomy perspective, which is like, yeah, the 100 percent didn't ask to come here. These are creatures who have no idea sort of what world they're on and they're going to do what they do, which is to rampage and ravage. But on the other hand, you have to remember that Wendy is, a child essentially, and is ascribing a level of autonomy that maybe doesn't really exist. And I think one could argue that Wendy is projecting somewhat her own sort of insecurity about whether or not she's human onto these creatures.

Adam Rogers: Alright, I feel like a dope, because it didn't even occur to me that she was just wrong. That they're, like–

Migizi Pensoneau: I mean, there's, you know, it's not like the noises that they're throwing back and forth at each other are subtitled.

Adam Rogers: I want to go back to the idea of whether the hybrids themselves might be property. On the research island they're taking the Silicon Valley move of like, we're just, doing interesting science, damn the regulations, it's a yes place, not a no place. You know, that basically there's no problem that technology can cause that it can't also solve.

Migizi Pensoneau: Sure.

Adam Rogers: It is a way of looking at this, like on Neverland, all scientific research is going to cause a lot of problems and then maybe even solve them and then sell the solutions as a subscription model.

Migizi Pensoneau: Yeah. There is a point where Atom Eins talks to Hermit and he says like, we've gotten you a new lung and it's not free. You do this for us and we signed this contract for you or we'll bill you. And that kind of like crushing debt is something that's like…I think is always a worry for humans now and it's in the future I think it's basically, what the government rules with is the idea that you are always under the thumb. Every major city in the world, Prodigy territory or Weyland Yutani territory, all of that are basically just think of them as company towns and that's it. You know, the moon's a company town. And you can buy things at the company store or elsewise, but it's going to be more expensive. And you're, you know, it's, it's pretty intense that way. What's funny is that's not obviously the main thrust of the story, but the fact that that just pervades everything in our story is pretty disgusting.

Adam Rogers: I hadn't thought of it as Hermit's lung being a subscription model, but yeah, that's kind of what it is. His life is threatened in a technical legal sense if he doesn't comply with the company's wishes. So they don't own his body the way they own the Hybrids, but they own an essential part of it that's keeping him alive. And that sets up a creepy, or, you know, disgusting as you put it, power dynamic between every citizen and Prodigy.

Migizi Pensoneau: I think the reason that Empires fall or autocrats go away is because there is a recognition at some point along the way when somebody's rights are being trampled that this can't stand anymore. And there's always a resistance. And it's always going to be when the goal is for the elevation of the individual at the expense of the many, and if the many suddenly starts to include these super powered Hybrid beings, you got, you have a hard time ahead of you if you're Boy K. If you're building this thing and bringing it into life, if you don't do it in a moral way, it's going to burn you in the end.

Adam Rogers: It's especially interesting in the context of mind wiping Nibs, right? That's like an inciting event that sparks the sort of revolution is when they assert their ownership over not just the body but the mind.

Migizi Pensoneau: One of the thrusts of the show when it's talking about finding the humanity within these things that were created in this sort of corporate landscape, what you're looking for sometimes when you're finding the humanity of something means you're finding the sort of morality in it. Boy K created the Hybrids, does that mean he owns the consciousness within? There are arguments to be made that he doesn't, and there are arguments to be made that he does. But, just morally, I think it's against–it's just against the spiritual law to rip somebody's sense of self away from them. And, I think that's, yeah, that is for sure will have some pretty intense consequences in the future for, for Boy K. It's always going to be, think that the lack of morality it's the stuff of good sci-fi. Sort of the downfall of the person that sort of brings that into the world.

Adam Rogers: That's all for this week's episode of Alien: Earth - The Official Podcast. Next week. The Sheep is an eyeball monster now, and Boy K is into it. Wendy knows what Dame Sylvia really thinks of the hybrids and she's not into it, and what has slightly gotten himself into himself.

Also, can we agree that Kirsh is the only character on the show who's actually seen an Alien movie and internalized its lessons? That's all next time digging into Episode Seven of FXs Alien: Earth.

Hey, if you could hook up Alien: Earth, the official podcast with a rating, or review, or a follow, we'd be into it wherever you're getting podcasts at.

I'm Adam Rogers, and I'll meet you back here next week.